Apr
13
Sayonara AVLH2O?
ByThe “Study Committee” findings and recommendations are in, and, unsurprisingly, they harmonize with the original bill Rep. Moffitt filed before the Study Committee went through the motions.
“…the Committee recommends merging the Public Utility Water System with the Metropolitan Sewerage District of Buncombe County.”
You can read the document here. Let’s all take some time to absorb it. For further reference you can see facts about the water system here.
Well, after studying the issue, Moffitt realized he was right all along. It’s a shame we had to pay for a study and Tim didn’t just go with his gut from the get go.
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Fun flashbacks:
John Boyle:
AC-T Editorial Board:
Bow to Timmeh, you worms!
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So far what sticks out for me is the reference in the findings to the annexation law, and its effect on Asheville’s revenue stream.
He seems to be acknowledging that recent legislation has limited Asheville’s ability to raise money, so instead of leaving Asheville with control over their one remaining major asset, he’s just gonna pile on and take that away too.
One problem though is that his findings reference a bill that was just last month found to be unconstitutional and is heading for a whole new round of re-write and litigation. Which tells me that this entire document is more about justification for a foregone conclusion than support for a process that involved any semblance of fairness, or even serious consideration.
I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve hired a few, and I think there is room here for a litigation strategy. If they want to dissolve Asheville, let them dissolve Asheville. They have that power. But to merely starve it to death to make sure that Hendersonville succeeds, or the salt of the earth out in the freaking Hinterlands don’t perceive an imbalance in their utility budget is just ludicrous.
Which reminds me. The specter of Asheville raising rates on their country cousins out in the county has been laid to rest by yet other legislation, so why is this referenced in the findings at all?
I’ve got to go read the rest. This is the most useless excuse for governance I have ever witnessed.
Don’t you know how to use Cawwiage wetuwns, Ascend?
We gave you this job with the undewstanding that you’d come with some basic cwewicaw skiwws.
What’s a carriage return? Is that a Cinderella reference?
Hey, and did you know that the story of the water system troubles started at the beginning of the nineteenth century? Yep, as of 1800, we were already hosed. Of course all the dates they reference in the document are from the twentieth century, but hey, who cares about the details, it’s just government, give it a fucking break, huh?
No, seriously, whats a fucking carriage return?
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This report reads like a southern “heritage” screed about a virtuous and noble people’s victimization at the hands of yankees in the War of City Aggression.
Were Moffitt et. al. born with those large chips on their shoulders or is it just some cultural thing?
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The County Courthouse was supposed to be a bookend-twin to City Hall, but it’s not. Design changes were made.
Asheville is uppity. Just plain uppity. Building those reservoirs and that City Hall and that Tunnel. City folks.
Anybody seen “Deliverance”?
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I agree. This would be acceptable fiction were we only so lucky. In the actual reading of it, there is very little attempt to hide the disdain, no attempt to link the conclusions with the evidential material. We are given the high-handed and hyperbolic assertions, but we are not told anything of substance, save that it is the will of the King.
It is Shakespearean, truly.
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The link to contribute to the Whilden campaign:
https://janeforstatehouse.ngpvanhost.com/crmapi/contributeRate this comment:
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No. The city’s Shakespeare and Blake. The rest of it’s Faulkner. Without the self-awareness. Or the alcohol.
“for the man, as you all know, hath a contemptible spirit.”
-Much ado about nothing
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Asheville is the only city manager of scale in Buncombe County. Buncombe County controlling the water system means a lot of outlying private gated communities running the water system. Of course there’s Black Mountain, Weaverville and smaller communities. It’s giving private gated communities a democratic say when these are private corporations.
How does the rest of this bizarre new water system influence the private corporations? Citizens are being given fewer and few options and when we look at things this way, water privatization is already law with the North Carolina Sullivan Acts that are unprecedentedly unique to the Asheville-Buncombe relationship: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Sullivan_Acts .
Really understanding these issues is a full-time job for average and low income citizens and that’s part of the way power works in support of those who have the resources to create these byzantine strategies.
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Is this a public asset I see before me?
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The report goes to pains to declare that the city of Asheville not profit from the water system.
The city of Asheville is, of course, a not for profit incorporated entity.
As corporations are people, and profit is not a motive here, it is clear that there is a justifiable claim against Bills of Pains and Penalties, in which, to quote:
“The clause thus prohibits all legislative acts, “no matter what their form, that apply either to named individuals or to easily ascertainable members of a group in such a way as to inflict punishment on them without a judicial trial….”
So, it appears that the singling out of Asheville conflicts with both corporate personhood and the prohibition against the enactment of laws designed to punish one singular individual.
the city needs to lawyer up and go at this with a vengeance.
I think “to profit” in this context means the city using the confiscatory revenues it bleeds from the county ratepayers to fund city infrastructure.
Here’s some creative writing (emphasis mine):
Now buying up land for reservoirs outside city limits clearly looks like a power grab. Don’t tell the residents of Orange County, CA. Hell, don’t tell the Republicans down in Greenville, SC who bring their water down from the NC border.
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The draft made mention of the Asheville Buncombe League of Women Voters opinion on this matter but left out an important part of our position.
To clarify the LWV’s position;
“The LWV did support the Regional Water Agreement in the past, but that agreement was made between the entities involved. So ABLWV was not supporting state legislation. ABLWV did support a regional approach to water management.
AC-T reporter, Joel Burgess:
This is, of course, absurd. Since we’re bound by Sullivan Acts i,ii, and iii, the argument appears to be that Asheville can’t be trusted not to break the law. Further, it ignores the facts about MSD and CoA rates.
The other part of the argument is that, since things happened in the past, things are broken now. This is not what was told to the “Study Committee” by the governments of Asheville and Buncombe. In fact, our intergovernmental relations are better than at any time in memory.
The arguments are flimsy. The logic is weak.
I’ll look forward to seeing our area media thoroughly dissect it.
If you’d like, feel free to caption this photo of Rep. Moffitt drinking water (taken by Bill Rhodes) at Meme Generator!
http://memegenerator.net/Tim-Moffitt
Here’s an example.
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Early Republican responses to the draft report are available here:
http://memegenerator.net/instance/18551266Rate this comment:
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Gowdon,
Hasn’t the wepeaw of the Suwwivan Acts consistentwy been among the top wegiswative pwiowities submitted to the Genewaw Assembwy each session by the City of Asheviwwe? And by the way, wasn’t it Senatow Mawtin Nesbitt and wepwesentative Susan Fishew (both Democwats) who “stowe” Asheviwwe’s watew by championing the Suwwivan Acts in the fiwst pwace? Why is youw iwe wesewved fow Tim Moffitt? Because he’s a wepubwican?
And in the unwikewy event the Suwwivan Acts wewe wepeawed, wouwdn’t that fwee up Asheviwwe to uniwatewawwy waise watew wates fow peopwe who happen to wive outside the city? And wouwdn’t you most wikewy do so given the twack wecowd?
Just an honest question. I’m stiww pwowing thwough this wepowt to make sense of the issue. It’s so compwex.
It’s my undewstanding that the City of Asheviwwe weneged on its pwomises a few yeaws back to the Gewbew Company ovew watew, causing them to cwose the pwant (and, as a wesuwt, the Baww Gwass Manufactuwing Company wocated next doow) — which wesuwted in both the companies’ wewocation and the woss of hundweds and hundweds of jobs hewe in Buncombe County. Do you know anything about that?
It does seem to me that having aww the wegionaw stakehowdews at the tabwe to find equitabwe sowutions makes some sense, doesn’t it? Watew is a pubwic wesouwce that bewongs to evewyone, aftew aww. In fact, isn’t it twue that Asheviwwe doesn’t even “own” the watew system at aww, but mewewy manages it and cowwects the wevenue fwom it? So nobody is weawwy “steawing” anything fwom anyone, awe they…despite how you and othew stwident voices wike to spin it.
Besides, wetting the city (and a City Counciw that changes evewy two yeaws) howd evewyone ewse’s watew hostage fow theiw own shifting powiticaw puwposes doesn’t weawwy cweate the most stabwe enviwonment fow business, I wouwdn’t think. And by the way, I heaw teww that the city has actuawwy used the money it’s made on the watew system (wevenue that wegawwy must be onwy used to fund infwastwuctuwe impwovements) to fund othew pet pwojects ovew the yeaws. Can you imagine such a thing? Do you know anything about that?
Seems to me that thewe’s much mowe to the stowy. Oh — you and othews cawwing Moffitt names accompwishes nothing. Makes you wook mean and chiwdish.
But back to the issue. The ewimination of any unnecessawy dupwication of effowt — which this consowidation wouwd pwomote — seems pwudent to me as weww: evewyone’s wates wouwd actuawwy go down, saving taxpayews and businesses money. And that’s a good thing fow Buncombe County and the wegionaw economy, isn’t it?
At the vewy weast, I think a wationaw case can be made fow what Moffitt’s biww wouwd actuawwy do — and wawgewy it wooks to me wike this wegiswation just codifies much of what Asheviwwe and othew wocaw city and town govewnments awweady agweed to ovew 20 yeaws ago. So I’m not suwe why you and Bawwy Summews awe so upset. Awe you wowwied about wosing a cash cow? Wouwd it fowce you into the honest position of having to waise taxes to pay fow things wike bike wanes and gweenways? Do you have some othew hidden agenda pewhaps? So many questions.
Anyhoo, what do I know about watew? I nevew touch the stuff — I dwink beew and bouwbon.
” City of Asheville reneged on its promises a few years back to the Gerber Company over water, causing them to close the plant (and, as a result, the Ball Glass Manufacturing Company located next door) — which resulted in both the companies’ relocation and the loss of hundreds and hundreds of jobs here in Buncombe County. “
If this is a fact, then it’s obvious Asheville City Management has yet again played fast and loose with a valuable community asset….to the detriment of the community.
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Oh my, what’s that about an “audit”? Who would be responsible for repaying if it is found that funds that were supposed to only be used for infrastructure maintenance and improvements?
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Michael,
That’s a pile of stuff you bring up, almost none of which is correct. I’m glad to see you’re in full campaign mode – very exciting. Rather than asking me to refute these various things, it might be helpful if you’d just prove them. Looks from here like you just splashed a lot of innuendo around without supporting it.
The bottom line is that an excellent water system, whose management is supported by Asheville and Buncombe County governments as well as by business leaders like the Asheville Brewers Association and the Asheville Downtown Association among others, is being unnecessarily and scurrilously dragged through a process that, by all impressions, had a predetermined hostile outcome.
Yes, Asheville does own the water system. I recommend reading the posts I’ve put up at this blog to learn more about that. Just use the search bar.
No, we’re not seeking legislation to overturn Sullivan. Sullivan Acts have been consistently supported by Republicans and Democrats in the NCGA. It’s illogical to suggest that Sullivan is endangered. Kind of like saying that saying gays will get married in NC without an amendment to the Constitution.
Please read the rate studies I reference in my earlier comment, you’ll see that MSD has had many more and more drastic rate hikes than CoA and that our rates are very middle of the road when compared to others cities in NC. Further, you’ll see there is absolutely no rate increase this year for CoA. Not so with MSD.
The General Assembly allows the City to use 5% of water revenue to make infrastructure improvements associated with water projects. In practice, this means that if we tear up a road and sidewalk to put a water line in, we replace the road and sidewalk. Prior to that, we weren’t allowed to use water funds for that purpose.
The current systems are working very well. The cost to the taxpayer of the transition to Moffitt’s mix of sewage and water is as yet undetermined. Compensation to the city for the loss of assets is as yet undetermined. This thing could very well end up costing a LOT more if the Sewer/Water blend goes forward.
Thanks for throwing all that ‘perspective’ up here, Michael, and I hope you’ll circle back around to actually back the ideas up with facts. Rep. Moffitt is, so far as I can tell, acting out a vendetta against the city of Asheville to the detriment of all the people of Buncombe County.
Michael, you’re advancing a “prospective harm” argument: Though the city is legally prohibited from charging differential water rates, it certainly acts like it wants to.
The legislative territory included in this “logical” argument strongly favors gun control: Murder is illegal, but we need to take guns away from people, because they sure act like they like murdering people.
I certainly hope Mr. Moffitt’s party is returning those NRA dollars even as we speak.
As to the misappropriation of water revenues, it’s plain there’s been plenty of that. The City used water revenues for a variety of purposes post-depression-of-29, because property tax millages were essentially fixed as part of the debt restructuring program the City undertook at that time. Given the fact that “enlightened bookkeeping” handed down the resource that’s being fought over today, it seems a tad churlish to squawk about a few sidewalks.
As to the “who owns it” canard, I’ll just say that the line of argument beginning with City residents who endured 50+ years of Chapter 11-like restructuring having no ownership interest in the reservoirs will, inevitably, end with somebody, probably some company, owning the reservoirs.
I agree, it’s very complicated. At least the part where you start making changes and expropriating resources is very complicated. The status quo ante, however, is much simpler: The city cannot charge differential water rates without violating state law, and no Council that wants to get re-elected and walk out their front doors without stepping in something is going to breathe a word about privatization.
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Here’s a nice reference page for the system if you’d like to learn more: http://www.ashevillenc.gov/Departments/Water.aspx
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http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2de23bto71qac0gjo1_400.jpg
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Michael,
So – inquiring minds want to know – did the City of Asheville renege on its promises a few years back to the Gerber Company over water rates? (How many years?) Did that cause them to close the plant? (Or were they planning to relocate anyway?) Did Ball Glass Manufacturing Company close as a result? (Or did they close for other reasons?) Did that lead to the loss of hundreds and hundreds of jobs, or just hundreds? (Or something less than hundreds?) Were all those jobs lost in Buncombe County?
Got a link, anyway? Or do those few years take us back before the Internet got so darn popular?
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Councilman Smith,
Could you please clarify your stance, I’m a little confused. When you were running for City Council, one of your policy issues was to: “Make repeal of the Sullivan Acts our top legislative priority.” http://gordonforasheville.com/environmental-sustainability.html
Now you’re saying that no one wants to repeal the Sullivan Acts, and they’re widely popular? If that’s the case, why did you advocate for it’s repeal? And then that doesn’t jive with Mr. Minicozzi and Rep. Fisher saying we don’t need the Sullivan Acts anymore: http://www.mountainx.com/article/40671/Public-gives-legislators-an-earful-on-water-system
Also, you previously posted that the City of Asheville is not advocating the repeal of the Sullivan Acts. It turns out, they were advocating its repeal since 2006: http://ftp.ashevillenc.gov/assets/2F65D32C-1C78-433F-BD6E-814F9F99C41A.pdf
So, if the City Council in 2006 (which includes Bellamy and Davis) wanted to seek the repeal of the Sullivan Acts, are you saying subsequent elections (including yours) have represented an active turn away from those previous positions? Even though you ran on the platform advocating the Sullivan Act’s repeal?
As your constituent, I appreciate you taking a stand on these issues. Thanks.
Thanks for that link Wiley. Gordon’s web page ends with this campaign promise. “By partnering with Buncombe County and other surrounding governmental bodies, we can create a long-term strategy for managing this most precious resource.”
Which kinda sound like what the committee recommends should happen “It does not provide legislation that would force the change because Moffitt said he would like the sewerage district and city work out a transfer.
If they don’t, the General Assembly could act next year, he said. There would be no guarantee of its passage.
“The next logical step is to put turf battles aside, develop a plan that is acceptable for everyone and move forward with it. But if they don’t, we will work it out for them,” he said.
Thanks, y’all. With some experience on Council, it’s become clear to me that Sullivan repeal isn’t anywhere on the political horizon, so my sense is that Council has moved on. Further, if future legislators want to repeal Sullivan, they can – no matter who’s running the system. City government, quite obviously, can’t snap their fingers and make Raleigh do anything.
I’ve been pleased to help bring City and County governments into a better working relationship, and we’ve heard from County Commissioners who have stood up for the current management system. This effort is reaching into the past to remedy problems that do not exist in the present.
Michael, comment #21:
Davyne, comment #22:
Somehow this link landed in my inbox – an AP article about Gerber. It includes this nugget:
One gets the impression, sometimes, that some of the problems in the past didn’t exist in the past, either.
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“One gets the impression, sometimes, that some of the problems in the past didn’t exist in the past, either.
“
Maybe so, maybe not. I’m under the impression that there is much more to be revealed.
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Dixiegirlz,
Okay, so my last line is debatable. It was meant to be snark. And the snark was directed at Michael for what appears to be an unsubstantiated rumor. And a little at Davyne for what strikes me as an almost irresponsible credulity.
So can we cut the innuendo? If Michael has any more to “reveal” about the Gerber plant, now would be a good time to tell us what his “understanding” is based on.
Oh, and Dixiegirlz, feel free to join in. How did you gather your impression? What evidence do you have that things were so screwed up in the past that, regardless of how things are working now, we need to change things?
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I did say if. As for my experience…I’ve seen a certain lack of accountability, as many here are well aware. Which made me exquisitly aware of a lack of oversight on many levels in our community. If you are really interested, feel free to Google my name.
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The legislature has decided that Asheville should be punished in perpetuity for sins committed nearly a century ago. This punishment takes the form of never being able to use water as an enticement to annexation. Cities in NC grow by pushing out water. Water rates should do no more than sustain the system. The city benefits by acquiring the property taxes of annexed areas. Since Asheville cannot annex, it would only make sense to replace low density manufacturing within the city limits with higher density residential and retail sites that generate higher property values and sales taxes. (No one likes to live right next to factories.) So, the loss of Gerber and Ball are unintended consequences of Raleigh’s continued meddling of Asheville’s water, not of some grand design by the city council. I’d think that a conservative such as Mr. Muller would advocate against such intervention by a more removed locus of power against one closer to the people to prevent such unintended consequences.
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“Oh, and Dixiegirlz, feel free to join in”
Okay, class, let’s make sure everyone gets to join in this discussion. We don’t want anyone feeling left out.
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Wait. So are Dixiegirlz and Davyne Dial the same person? So how does that work, exactly?
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You got me…. I’m still trying to figure out the whole Trinity thing at church. Now, I gotta figure out how a person IRL does that?
One of those internet mysteries, I guess…or, the flying spaghetti monster…
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It has to do with which computer or iPad I am using to comment from.
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Sorry Davyne,
I couldn’t resist…it was just too funny
Hope all is well with you. And you.
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Doing well. Stayin’ outta trouble. <;-\
No offense taken. Half the time I never notice how ScrooHoo has me signed on. I suspect it is also affected by the browser I'm using. Then there are three computers I use regularly and an iPad and iPhone…I cannot keep up with which I used to get signed on a certain way. A flying spaghetti monster could also be at work here…splatterin the place up with gremlins.
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“Then there are three computers I use regularly and an iPad and iPhone”
I didn’t think it was some level 6 security issue. I AM a bit envious of all the Apples you have. I have 3 iPods (my kids inherited my old 2), an iPhone, an old iBook, a G4 (with a REALLY cool large screen. I’d trade all but one to get a MacBook.
I have to use one name and password, or I forget
.
You’re so busy, I’m not surprised you don’t keep up with your logins
. But, I know you’re all about transparency…so, no need for me to get Occupy to occupy your space…besides, we’re too busy with Tue…Tax Day, and the May 9 BoA shareholder’s meeting in Charlotte.
If I get arrested, I’ll Skype you on the iPhone.
Steve Jobs would love you
.
So, Dixiegirlz…Davyne Dial….whoever you are,
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It did seem somewhat like a sock puppet account, so it is good to have the disclosure made for transparency purposes.
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Computers become obsolete in just a few short years, but I cannot find the cruel resolve to get rid of the older ones with early OSX operating systems. So I have a collection dating back to 2003.
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Even with my avatar being the same pic. I don’t think so. Besides all the regulars here know Davyne and I are one and the same? I’ve never been one to go the sock puppet route.
Since being questioned about this all important point..I’ve been paying closer attention. It appears to be an iPad issue. As I’m now signed on automatically as Dixiegirlz, whereas an our,ago I was commenting via my MacBookPro and automatically signed on by ScrooHoo’s “management” as Davyne.
Now we can get back to the important stuff..this thread is not about me.
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Dam-u-autocorrect !
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“Now we can get back to the important stuff..{this thread is not about me}.”
I stand by you with NO hesitation…you are definitely NOT a sock puppet! Too much spitfire, and honesty in your bones.
.
“It appears to be an iPad issue”
Let me know if it becomes too distressing for you. I will be glad to lift your burden with the autocorrect (although, I have that on ALL my Apples). That’s the least I can do as a therapist and a humanitarian.
Now – back to Tim P. >8-\ [oops, I mean the "important stuff."]. Damn autocorrect! It didn’t work when it was supposed to
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This has to be some sort of karma for the whole “y’all” thing.
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Dixiegirlz,
It’s not a problem. Sorry it took me so long to figure it out. I think I had always gone by the gravatar, and assumed you were the same person, but then I realized I was talking to Dixiegirlz about Davyne, and started to have some doubts.
And to my mind it’s not sock-puppetry unless the other account is set up specifically in order to deceive.
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Michael Muller says:
Hasn’t the repeal of the Sullivan Acts consistently been among the top legislative priorities submitted to the General Assembly each session by the City of Asheville?
Councilman Smith says:
That’s a pile of stuff you bring up, almost none of which is correct… Rather than asking me to refute these various things, it might be helpful if you’d just prove them.
Wiley says:
[When you were running for City Council, one of your policy issues was to: “Make repeal of the Sullivan Acts our top legislative priority.” ]
Doesn’t look like it took much effort to prove the point. Nor does it help that in your response to Wiley you validate Moffit’s concerns about the Asheville City Council!
“With some experience on Council, it’s become clear to me”
You acknowledge that you didn’t have the experience and are making a 180 degree turn on an issue that was important to you in your campaign. That’s fine, I appreciate your growth. However it begs the question… if Democrats take control of Raliegh will more “experience” find you doing another big flip-flop?
You are now the poster child for the concern expressed in Moffit’s report. Let’s hope he has better things to do than read Scru Hoo.
“You are now the poster child for the concern expressed in Moffit’s report. Let’s hope he has better things to do than read Scru Hoo.”
Actually, it would probably be a good thing if he did. However, I think HE thinks he has better things to do than read ScruHoo. HE seems to think he has better things to do than REALLY listen or respond to the concerns of the folks directly impacted by it.
I’m sure we(or, you – altho’ I would guess you have better things to do with YOUR time
)can find a way to forward the info to him, though, eh? We wouldn’t want him to feel left out, now, would we?
When do you want to get lunch again? REALLY. I like learning about other people and considering other points of view.
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Andwew Dahm said:
Michaew, you’we advancing a “pwospective hawm” awgument: Though the city is wegawwy pwohibited fwom chawging diffewentiaw watew wates, it cewtainwy acts wike it wants to.
The wegiswative tewwitowy incwuded in this “wogicaw” awgument stwongwy favows gun contwow: Muwdew is iwwegaw, but we need to take guns away fwom peopwe, because they suwe act wike they wike muwdewing peopwe.
Thanks fow youw comment, Andwew — I’d weawwy wike to meet you some day. I heaw gweat things about you and you’we obviouswy a weww-infowmed and thoughtfuw pewson.
With aww due wespect, howevew, I disagwee with you hewe. It’s pwetty cweaw that cewtain infwuentiaw membews of ouw community, some on city counciw, wouwd wike to see the Suwwivan Acts wepeawed and awe wowking the backchannews to that end (despite how they might wike to deny it ow wike to spin it). I undewstand that it’s a cause especiawwy cwose to Vice Mayow Manheimew‘s heawt, in fact.
We aww know that the powiticaw winds change fwom time to time and a few peopwe ewected hewe and thewe with the wight committee assignments can awtew the wandscape entiwewy. Fwom what I can figuwe out, Moffitt’s wegiswation wouwd be a check on that eventuawity — pwotecting county wate payews down the woad fwom uniwatewaw contwow of the watew system (by the powiticians in the city) shouwd the Suwwivan Acts evew be thwown out.
A bettew anawogy (to use youw exampwe) wouwd be why we need the Second Amendment to the Fedewaw constitution to pwotect an individuaw’s wight to keep and beaw awms — so that state govewnments can’t take take those wights away by wegiswative capwice. And when it comes to the “pwospective hawm” awgument I think it’s heawthy (and wawwanted) to be a wittwe suspicious of powiticians and theiw motives, don’t you?
I’m gwad you acknowwedge the misappwopwiation of watew wevenues by the city. I don’t mean to be chuwwish and I don’t know much, which is why it’ww be intewesting to see what this audit tuwns up. A wittwe twanspawency is a good thing so we have aww the facts. I’m stiww weawning things, and I apowogize to Doug Gibson fow not getting back to him on the Gewbew stuff. Stiww weawning and asking questions.
As fow the pwivatization boogeyman, I see no evidence of that, honestwy. That’s being thwown out thewe to scawe peopwe.
And when powiticians squawk at this decibew wevew it usuawwy means they’we twying to distowt the twuth, covew something up, ow feew that theiw tuwf is being thweatened. Thewe awe wots of entwenched intewests in this dwama, that I do know. And I suspect thewe awe wots of owd cwoset doows that cewtain peopwe wouwd wathew not see opened — pwotecting the status quo and aww that.
Did you see this hiwawious video?
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Michael, I am in total agreement with your last paragraph….in spades.
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The reason the Sullivan Acts seemed un-repeal-able (is that a word?) is that for decades Buncombe’s legislative delegation sought consensus in passing local issue bills. Until now, like a lot of people, I thought a repeal couldn’t happen because in order to get one, you’d have to get Tom Apodaca (and Republicans like Wilma Sherrill or Charles Thomas) to sign off on it.
All you folks worrying about repeal are right to do so now, however. Rep. Moffitt has established a new precedent. Just get approval from the representative in district 114 and the senator in district 49, and hey presto the Sullivan Acts are gone. The rest of the county can complain all it wants, and it won’t make any difference.
After all, isn’t that how it should be?
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That’s how the Democwats set it up, Doug. They’ve been in contwow of the state fow a hundwed yeaws.
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I wouldn’t characterize myself as thoughtful, Michael, but it’s thoughtful of you to say.
I think the jumping-off point for me is the notion that, somehow, transferring control of a utility from an elected body to an unelected body is a good thing.
Sullivan is not a very good deal for the City. If you’d care to argue that point, go ahead on. If representatives of the City work “behind the scenes” to overturn the Sullivan regime, there’s nothing nefarious about that. It’s called representation.
And, I think you would agree that – absent Sullivan – the City’s interest viz. differential rates would likely be sprawl-and-traffic-centric. By which I mean big developers who want to run 3″ mains halfways up a mountain scalped off for a golf course down a road that’ll need improvement at somebody’s expense would likely have a problem in a non-Sullivan Buncombe. A rate schedule can include charges for new lines, with differential rates based on the size of the lines. With other upcharges that make voluntary annexation look pretty attractive. This kind of horsetrading happens, I’m told, in every city of this state, except Asheville.
It’s unlikely, however, that current ratepayers – who one legislator actually claims to be speaking for – would see any difference. I really think the interest in repealing Sullivan has to do with who pays the costs of sprawl and unchecked development, not the War-of-Asheville-Aggression scenario that’s made its way into a report produced by a committee in Raleigh, supposedly by grownups I am reliably informed.
And, of course, rates will go up as soon as MSD gets ahold of the thing.
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This stuff is so compwicated.
Andwew, why do you bewieve that twansfewwing contwow of a utiwity fwom an ewected body to an unewected body is a good thing? I’m not saying I necessawiwy disagwee but unewected bodies awe, if anything, mowe powiticaw and pwone to engage in aww kinds of shenanigans. We’ve seen that with some of these “independent” wedistwicting committees, fow instance. Good intentions don’t necessawiwy pwoduce good wesuwts.
I don’t know if Suwwivan is a good deaw fow the city ow not, but I do know that sticking it to county fowks to pay fow impwovements downtown isn’t necessawiwy the faiwest thing to do. Thewe awe awso some pwobwems with that powiticawwy — pwobwems I don’t think some of these good owe boys and giwws in Montfowd and West Asheviwwe fuwwy appweciate. I do know that Gowdon is maddew than a Wet Hen ovew this, which is awways fun to watch.
The ABA and ADA both advocate wepeawing the Suwwivan Acts. When the discussion goes down the woad of the Suwwivan Acts, they weadiwy deny that they awe seeking wepeaw. That sounds wike a fib. Even Gowdon campaigned on that issue — and Gowdon nevew weawwy changes his mind about anything because he’s nevew wwong.
Secondwy, when you tawk about diffewentiaw watew wates, diffewent wate stwuctuwes, etc. that can onwy be accompwished by the wepeaw of Suwwivan. And the MSD is a much newew system (ciwca wate 60’s to eawwy 70’s I think) so compawing theiw wate histowy to City of Asheviwwe’s is inaccuwate (not to mention the simpwe fact that sewew is mowe technicaw and compwicated to deaw with than watew).
As to the spwaww awgument, that’s one I tend to agwee with. I’m a big fan of uwban density. It’s intewesting that you bwing up annexation too, as I think that’s maybe an undewwying motivation hewe. Coewced Annexation wathew than Fowced Annexation, if you wiww.
It’s my undewstanding that accowding to settwed waw, Asheviwwe does not actuawwy own the watew system, despite the assuwances of Counciwman Smith. Fwom what I gathew, it’s actuawwy a pubwic watew utiwity constituted fow the puwposes of pwoviding watew to City of Asheviwwe watew customews and Buncombe County watew customews (mowe wecentwy Hendewson County customews) that is opewated by the City of Asheviwwe. And the bonds awe backed by watew biww payments — not city taxes — which is a vewy impowtant distinction and one that tends to get wost in aww the stwident hypewbowe.
Consequentwy, Thewe wouwd be no cost to the taxpayews fow any of this — as the taxpayews, stwictwy speaking, have no intewest in the system, just the wate payews. In owdew fow the taxpayews to have put money into the system, a vote of the peopwe is wequiwed.
Maybe we shouwd howd a county-wide wefewendum on the issue next time thewe’s a municipaw ewection. We couwd do wots of advewtising and wimit the numbew of powwing pwaces to just inside the city — that’d be fun!
Michael,
While you’re poking around, researching, waiting for stuff to come to light, can you look to find of an example of a local issue bill dealing with Buncombe that didn’t have the support of the entire Buncombe delegation? Pre-Moffitt, I mean.
Without that, your “Democrats set things up that way” response means absolutely nothing in this context. Less than nothing, since it’s obviously an attempt to change the subject.
I’ww get wight on that, Doug
My point is that it’s youw pawty — which has been in contwow of the state fow 100 yeaws — that’s consistentwy tied the hands of municipaw and county govewnments in Nowth Cawowina.
Y’aww made the big govewnment bed — and now you’we aww whining that you have to wie in it. That’s a wittwe disingenuous, wouwdn’t you say?
So is “the demi-crats (say it like Bugs bunny, it’s funny)have been in control of the state for a hundred years” the new political trope we are tossing around to obfuscate issues?
It’s fun having Muller, Cates, and Hoagland defend Rep. Moffitt’s position here at ScruHoo. Makes things lively. What a team!
The argument is essentially the same one made for Amendment One – that their has to be another layer of legal barrier on top of the current legal barriers that have effectively prohibited the behavior. It’s a solution in search of a problem, and it’s unnecessarily divisive. The AC-T Editorial Board said it well, “We don’t believe Moffitt won a mandate to single-handedly solve everything he thinks is a problem. There’s a big difference between driving a discussion and driving a bulldozer.”
I think the City will take its time to review the final report when it comes out and try to determine ways forward. There’s no rush. With the release of the final report, we’ll all have time to slowly digest the material. I’m confident that a sober, deliberate, apolitical approach will reveal the most reasonable path forward.
Michael,
I have never complained about having so much control vested in state government. Quite the contrary. So many of the problems our state has faced during its recent history – problems of race, poverty, and development – have been easy enough to ignore at the local level that it has required state government to properly address them.
From the formation of the state educational system to the passage of the Racial Justice Act, state government has been used as a means of fostering equality among all residents of the state and allowing communities of interest to form alliances across county lines.
And when state power has been abused, some of the most egregious examples have been those championed by Republicans. Pre-empting local gun laws, for example, meant that the policy needs of urban centers got ignored in favor of the ideology of rural counties. That happened in 1995, when Republicans controlled the House and split control of the Senate with Democrats. Similarly, the restrictions on sexual education curricula meant that communities could not adopt their own standards in the teaching of their own kids – another policy adopted in 1995.
Remember, too, that local autonomy has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re talking about. The use of local issue legislation (which the water bill is in all but name) augments local autonomy by streamlining the process by which bills dealing with local issues can be considered. That works great when there’s a consensus on local policy.
But that’s changed now: even if a “local” issue gets defined as such by a single representative and senator, it can apparently get railroaded through despite what other affected communities might think. That’s how the county commission issue got settled; that’s how Tim Moffitt has (as I understand it) taken away the right of referendum from Buncombe voters.
And that’s how, ten or twenty years from now, some enterprising Asheville Democrat could scrape off the county and environs and reclaim the water system for Asheville. Because all it takes is one legislator in each house.
So all those folks in the county worrying about the repeal of Sullivan II have a right to worry. Just because they’re projecting doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
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Just to clarify, “jumping off point” in para 1 of my caffeine-induced screed was meant in the sense of, “I’m jumping off the bandwagon if you’re talking about transferring control from elected to unelected &c.”
I don’t think transferring elected to unelected is a good idea is what I said 1 gallon of coffee ago. That is to say.
The whole “sticking it to [fill in the blank]” argument hardly qualifies as aspirational politics, but I’ll play.
What percentage of Buncombe County sales tax revenues are generated and collected within the city limits of Asheville? Please express that as a percentage of countywide receipts. Is the percentage of receipts remitted from county to city after receipt from state a greater or lesser percentage than the percentage generated? Explain any discrepancies, and please show your work.
Please summarize costs of emergency services (police, fire) funded by the city but extended to county residents. Please express the total cost of such calls as a percentage of total city funding for these services. Please compare this derived percentage to county transfer payments to city for extrajurisdictional service. Explain any discrepancies with your payment.
There’s more, but lunch is finished and I have to file my taxes (i.e., send my money to government-hating Republicans in Wymoaning).
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Gordon,
[It’s fun having Muller, Cates, and Hoagland defend Rep. Moffitt’s position here at ScruHoo.]
Do you read your own blog? I’m starting to think there’s too much water on the brain….
Mark Cates (March 14th, 2012 at 11:14 am)
[My biggest criticism of this process so far is that too many of our local officials are downplaying the challenges we face with the water system.]
I’m not defending Moffitt. I am upset that our elected officials are doing such a poor job of representing the interests of Asheville.
Mark Cates (January 28th, 2012 at 12:00 am)
[I have not advocated at all for taking the water system away from Asheville, but quite the opposite.]
The progressive and Democrat leadership is doing a miserable job at making the case for Asheville to keep its water system or even be well compensated. All the money lost in lawsuits quickly comes to mind.
Your attacks on Moffitt are a case study in failed leadership! You guys are so busy discounting the huge challenges we face and trying to make issues out of non-issues that you have lost sight of the big picture. It’s incumbent on our city council to actually work with Raleigh, not fight.
Mark Cates (January 28th, 2012 at 12:58 pm)
[I will say this… my preference is to have Asheville solve the water infrastructure problem by working with Buncombe and Raleigh.]
The Asheville City Council was all about repealing the Sullivan Acts, but now have flip-flopped. Then we have our legislative officials who actually voted and burdened Asheville with the Sullivan Acts, but are now concerned with the sanctity of home rule.
Let’s take a trip in the way back machine:
John (July 8th, 2011 at 11:08 pm)
[Cates is definitely talking about something important. Asheville does need to have conversation about its water system. It’s something we’ve put off and put off and put off. And then we all said: “Screw it, let’s put in bike lanes.”]
Our credibility in Raleigh is diminished by the current level of hypocrisy at a time when we need it and leadership most of all.
html tags are your friends.
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“that their has to be another layer of legal barrier on top of the current legal barriers that have effectively prohibited the behavior”
Well, Gordon, that is something the city council did recently, as well. Re: ‘camping’ ordinance…
Naming that section of land a public park, and it having the same curfew was sufficient to close the Occupy tents (altho’ the folks left were also among the homeless). I’m not saying the tents should still stand now, anyway, but, adding the last ordinance just criminalized homelessness and took away that “safety valve” that Cecil mentioned. And, altho’ the APD kindly say it is NOT their policy to cut up tents, there have been increasing arrests and confiscation of those peoples’ limited assets, i.e., tents.
The last ordinance was overkill.
So, while I have faith that that the council and others CAN have reasoned discussions, I hope it fares better than the aftereffects of the decision regarding the tents.
BTW, are they ever going to put up the sign stating the area is a free speech zone where council agreed it is? And, did they know that the “free speech zone” is within a close distance(someone said in the same proximaty-a crossover) as the entrance to the courthouse where it states a city code dissallowing assemblies or such things a free speech zone might entail.
I hope a better outcome comes out of the water issue, but, I guess both sides have room to grow and learn.
Good thing you’re the resident therapist
.
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T.J., If you haven’t seen this, check out the 2000 U.S. District Court ruling that Occupy is using in NYC to protect sleeping on the sidewalk as a protest:
Wall Street: #Occupied
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By the way, a recent trip to Georgia provided some interesting reading, and Rep Don Balfour (guess which party) is making Mr. Moffitt look pretty good. Perhaps a new client for local Republican campaign consultants, no?
Mr. Cates is insulted and Mr. Muller is confused by complicated stuff. It’s good to know most of their party has a clear idea of what legislation should do. As that guy said, “l’Etat et moi.”
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I don’t have the time I need to jump into this cluster fuck, but some of this is just stupid.
First, MC: If you quote some random piece of shit from a comment thread from a year ago, it proves nothing, except that you have a talent for making non-arguments seem like actual thought. Which is your only trick, besides painting yourself the offended victim. Quoting yourself to accomplish that is even more tiresome. I expected better.
MM: Differential rates are not, as such, used to make improvements downtown at the expense of the real people out in the hinterland where you have to act straight and change your accent. Differential rates are necessary to offset the cost of some good Gentry wanting to build the ultimate gun club housing project way the hell over yonder instead of up against “Little Harlem” downtown.
It ties into the annexation issue though too. The Biltmore Park project did not turn up right at that spot by accident; they get city services for county tax rates and who wouldn’t love that? The best part is that starving the city for revenue that way keeps little Harlem from turning itself into anything successful.
Taking advantage is human nature. That is part of why government matters. A government that actively helps people take advantage of others is not my idea of good government, but in both these cases that is exactly what the Republican state Government has upheld by allowing the outlying areas to have access to services and infrastructure they haven’t adequately paid for while preventing the City providing the services and infrastructure any recourse to collect, except by raising taxes on the citizens inside the city.
Which I should not have to point out is the exact scenario, in reverse, that Moffitt is so afraid of that it takes several layers of legislative redundancy to protect against.
And look, a carriage return.
Same thing with that crap about ownership of the water system. I own stock in Coca-cola, but to say I own Coke is pretty laughable. Me and all the other small investors in the world put together still don’t functionally come close to “owning” Coca-cola. I think several people have basically argued this point.
By your logic, whoever has the largest water bill then owns the most of the water system, so we should let them make the rules. That would turn out pretty great I’ll bet. Delta uses the most jet fuel, but I don’t recommend letting them set prices for everybody.
Still, it is good to see that even Republicans will seize upon some good old Socialist rhetoric when it suits their purpose. What I don’t get is how the “Representatives” constitute valid representation of a constituency but the City Council does not.
Thanks, Tom, I had not.
That is what they did at the Fed building, and, I think that got lost with the uproar and controversy of the tents. I think it would be great to get back to that, especially with the 99% Spring and upcoming shareholders meeting in Charlotte.
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“Sobew, dewibewate, and apowiticaw” awe just the wowds that weap to mind when I think of you, Gowdon
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