Apr
05

Business Development Open Thread

By

“Victory has a thousand fathers”, said John F. Kennedy, and this week has made it plain that, in Asheville’s economic development, this couldn’t be more true.

Linamar, based in Canada but with 39 factories based in 11 countries, opened their plant yesterday in south Asheville. By the end of the year they’ll be employing 140 local workers in family-wage, career track manufacturing jobs. It took an enormous network of partners to make this happen from the NC Department of Commerce to the Asheville City Council. The Economic Development Coalition of Buncombe County wooed them, and the Buncombe County Commissioners, along with the state and city, came on board with a competitive incentive package. Volvo and Caterpillar signed contracts with Linamar for products, and suppliers made sure they got what they needed. Linamar is going to invest a minimum of $125 million in the plant over the next five years and employ 400 people. At yesterday’s Grand Opening, executives were already discussing expansion of the plant in the near future.

Today there’s going to be a big announcement, too. Come down to the Chamber of Commerce at 4pm if you’d like a front row seat. Ride your bike if you can, because the matter at hand will have permanent effects on our multimodal transportation network in addition to our employment universe. As with Linamar, it’s taken an enormous amount of team play to coax the group to Asheville. Private and public entities have focused like an effervescent laser beam. More details later, but suffice to say there will be jobs and an historic investment. Any economic incentives offered will have to be disclosed and voted upon in open meetings of public bodies.

Lots of folks have differing opinions about tax incentives, which these days most often take the form of tax abatements, but everyone’s got the same opinion about good jobs. We like ‘em.

This is your thread. Opine wildly.


Comments

  1. Dixiegirlz says:

    Are not incentives the way of the world these days? Especially if they can provide much needed jobs. Businesses know they are needed and can pretty much choose where they want to locate. Why not go where the best incentives are?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  2. Ascend of Asheville says:

    Yes, but part of it is also keeping the area itself as enticing and inviting as possible.
    To that end, the recent Republican led votes on billboards, and the connected clear-cutting, the continuing threats to our water system, the egregious restrictions placed on Asheville, and in most cases nowhere else, on how we raise the necessary funding, how we grow and manage our economy and how our leadership is elected stand out as the heinous, misguided, acts of sabotage they are. Motivated not by any sense of duty to our state or its citizens, but by an overactive sense of revenge and partisan political maneuvering.
    But still we grow, not because of them but in spite of them. We must work to make sure that the candidates elected this coming fall will be up to the challenge and focused on the work yet to be done, and will not have bought in to the conservative “Dismantle America” agenda.

    Thumb up 6

  3. Dixiegirlz says:

    In “spite of”…my sentiments precisely.
    In spite of a deeply entrenched good ole boy and gal system and now the current attacks to avenge past misdeeds”Motivated not by any sense of duty to our state or its citizens, but by an overactive sense of revenge and partisan political maneuvering.”,
    or the ongoing attacks as to how “sinful” we are…we will continue to be a place that people want to come, and some may even stay. Spirit which we have in spades (in spite of) the above mentioned demons, is unstoppable once it reaches a critical mass.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  4. Ascend of Asheville says:

    Meanwhile, North Carolina is not only growing, it’s growing.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/us/the-carolinas-work-to-clarify-their-borders.html

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  5. RHS says:

    Meanwhile, many WNC counties that for years were seeing big growth booms are now losing population.

    http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012304050021

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  6. Michael Muller says:

    Bla, bla bla, complain, complain, complain, blame the evil Republicans, bla bla bla…

    Good Lord, Ascend — how in the world does that wife of yours put up with you? She must be a saint. Or deaf as a damn doorknob!

    Hey, I have an idea. You could come over to my house and we could drink bourbon and I could dress you up in some of my old Brooks Brothers button-downs and penny loafers and we could watch my old VHS tapes of Firing Line and sing vaguely homoerotic campfire songs. That’d be fun!

    Thumb up 6

  7. Oh right — now I remember why I wandered in here.

    Speaking of Evil Republicans, the Dark Lord of the 116th has sponsored yet another dastardly piece of legislation that would actually allow breweries in Buncombe County to offer tastings and sell beer on-site. On-site, I say!

    Read the whole sordid story here.

    Wicked, Wicked Moffitt! Evil Job-Killing Republicans! Help us! The horrors! The italics! And what about the children? My God, think of the Children!

    Thumb up 5

  8. Gordon Smith says:

    Michael,

    I’m gratified that Rep. Moffitt was one of the many people who like jobs coming to this area. It was truly a team effort, and he was a part of it.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  9. Diogenes says:

    Assholery no matter how droll is what it is. Of all the evil in the world Republicans seem to suggest it, support it, fund it, protect it, or claim it necessary in the defense of liberty, freedom, the Founders and the Constitution.

    But, if it weren’t for Republicans, we’d be eating our own.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  10. Nice of you to say, Gordon. I was beginning to think you maybe didn’t like Tim or something.

    I know Ascend doesn’t like Representative Moffitt very much. He’s been calling him all kinds of nasty names!

    Thumb up 6

  11. Tom Sullivan says:

    “… the new jobs will pay an average $50,000 a year, exceeding the county’s average wage by 43 percent.” I’ll drink that!

    Asheville image attracts New Belgium brewery

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  12. Matthew Hoagland says:

    So, let me make sure I’ve got this straight…

    Rep. Moffitt drafts and passes an overwhelmingly bipartisan piece of legislation to open the door for New Belgium and Sierra Nevada to come here and it’s part of a broad community effort.

    But, when Moffitt seeks to solve an 80-year water problem by taking the same position as the Asheville/Buncombe League of Women Voters and Chamber of Commerce did the last time it was debated, it’s a single-handed move to “seize” Asheville’s water system.

    …I think I got it.

    By the way, in Gordon’s interest of full disclosure, I’m the chairman of the Buncombe County Young Republicans.

    Thumb up 5

  13. Gordon Smith says:

    Matt,

    You may have missed original bill to simply seize the system that he neglected to mention to elected officials who were there the day before he filed it. We’ll see what the “study committee” recommendation says. Here’s hoping they lay it aside in response to the outpouring of community opposition.

    Lastly, the effort to take the system has nothing to do with economic development.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 4

  14. RHS says:

    “the new jobs will pay an average $50,000 a year, exceeding the county’s average wage by 43 percent.” I’ll drink that!”

    The question though is will these jobs go to locals, or will they mostly go to people New Belgium transfers here?

    Still, their decision to open their east coast brewing facility here is something of a blow to the CIBO crowd who always insists that Asheville and its environmentalism creates a bad climate for business.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  15. RHS says:

    “But, when Moffitt seeks to solve an 80-year water problem by taking the same position as the Asheville/Buncombe League of Women Voters and Chamber of Commerce did the last time it was debated, it’s a single-handed move to “seize” Asheville’s water system.”

    The last time this issue was debated was seven years ago when Asheville pulled out of the regional water authority. Since then many who were unhappy with that move have said that Asheville has been an excellent steward of the water system and that King….I mean Rep. Moffit’s actions were simply opening up old wounds that had healed. That the public “hearings” his committee had revealed very little support for his proposal is another indication of that.

    Nice try though.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  16. Ascend of Asheville says:

    @MM: Did my wife tell you about my Firing Line collection? You bring the bow ties and I’ll bring the bourbon. I got West Wing too.
    But first I have to break free from the infernal flatness of the research triangle area of our otherwise lovely state and get my ass back to the mountains where I belong.
    …And as far as Moffitt goes, I neither like nor dislike him as a person. He might be a great guy. I attack him and call him names because his politics suck. His ideas for Western North Carolina suck as well, and if his name gets added to the very occasional decent piece of legislation, it is only either by accident or motivated by a desire to throw the poor suckers a bone to make himself look good.
    No offense intended, its just that he needs to go back to his consulting business as of this coming November, and I aim to help make that happen however I can.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  17. Mark Cates says:

    [Asheville has been an excellent steward of the water system]

    Last week I had to shell out 200 bucks to resolve a water problem due to a change in pressure in our neighborhood, perhaps I can bill the steward…

    Thumb up 5

  18. Davyne Dial says:

    “Speaking of Evil Republicans, the Dark Lord of the 116th has sponsored yet another dastardly piece of legislation that would actually allow breweries in Buncombe County to offer tastings and sell beer on-site. On-site, I say!”

    Whoopie effing do!… And Hitler built the autobahns, too.

    I’ll wait for the locals like Andrew Dahm to verify this wonderful work of Mr. Moffitt. Right now, I’m in the it’s “50% spin” cycle.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  19. Andrew Dahm says:

    I’ll just say that while all the backpatting was going down at the Chamber today, I was near the taps plying one Oscar Wong with beers. Oscar is a classy, generous brewery owner who has done a lot to develop the brewing scene that drew Sierra Nevada and New Belgium here, and my hat is off to him.

    Government’s role in creating manufacturing jobs may be a bit less simple.

    http://blogs.reuters.com/chrystia-freeland/2012/03/29/manufacturing-redux/

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  20. Davyne Dial says:

    Thanks for that touch of reality Andy.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  21. Tom Sullivan says:

    I speak 3-A, Tri-Clover, Cherry-Burrell, APV, Saunders, Gemü, Waukesha, Trent Tube and Tuchenhagen. Hire me. Let’s make beer.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  22. Gordon Smith says:

    I hear from a lot of people about a lot of problems. The only reports I get about the water system are from Mr. Cates on this blog.

    Thumb up 5

  23. Gordon Smith says:

    Oscar Wong is the godfather of AVL brewing, and we all owe him a debt of gratitude for being a pioneering entrepreneur.

    Thumb up 7

  24. mat catastrophe says:

    “… the new jobs will pay an average $50,000 a year, exceeding the county’s average wage by 43 percent.”

    I love this kind of statistic. It makes you think that everybody that lands a job in the place will immediately be lifted up into the middle class and buy a house.

    But that’s probably not the case. I imagine there will be 3 – 5 positions getting a six-figure salary, and the remaining positions will pay closer to $30,000 a year. Is that good money? Sure. But it’s not accurate to make grand claims about the average wages if you don’t take into account that the vast majority of the people will fall behind that average due to the weighted salaries at the top.

    Unless, of course, New Belgium has some sort of ratio cap imposed on their salaries, a la Ben and Jerry’s (oops! sorry, that ended in 1995 – http://articles.latimes.com/1995-02-05/magazine/tm-28412_1_ben-cohen)

    And there’s still the assumption that those are just the figures for hard wages, and not the associated benefits.

    Which is where my problem lies with some of this (and I’m not even going to touch on tax incentives at the moment): we’re handed these wonderful little facts and figures outside of any meaningful context about what sort of living they will actually provide for the bulk of the people who will actually be working inside the facility and producing the very stuff that drives the executive salaries.

    There’s no doubt that jobs are good, but why are we left believing that just *any* job is good?

    And why are we so often allowing corporations to hand us the gun to hold to our own heads in the form of “tax incentives”? That’s entirely too much like blackmail or hostage taking, as far as I am concerned. If we reverse the logic of “if we don’t give them what they want, they will take their business elsewhere” to “all communities should stand firm in holding businesses to an equitable tax burden as part of the cost of doing business in a just society” then we’d probably be better off as a nation.

    Or, we can just keep taking what they’re giving and smile as we slide further down the slope into becoming a third-world nation filled with crumbling infrastructure, failing schools, a decimated social safety net, declining wages, and no hope for a secure retirement.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  25. Gordon Smith says:

    From the Economic Development Coalition of Buncombe County:

    NEW BELGIUM TO BREW IN ASHEVILLE’S RIVER ARTS DISTRICT

    Asheville, NC– In conjunction with the Economic Development Coalition for Asheville-Buncombe County (EDC), New Belgium Brewing Company announced the selection of Asheville, North Carolina to build its first expansion brewery outside of Fort Collins, Colorado. The nation’s third-largest craft brewer plans to invest $175 million over seven years to build a state-of-the-art brewery in Asheville’s historic River Arts District on Craven Street. The expansion will strengthen the company’s capacity to serve new markets and reduce the cost and environmental impact of cross-country distribution. The brewery will create over 154 new jobs by 2020 and is expected to launch production in the first quarter of 2015. The average annual wage for jobs created will exceed $50,000, plus benefits, exceeding the county’s average wage by 43 percent.

    The site selection process was driven by factors including proximity to Eastern markets, water quality and a shared community commitment to sustainable practices. The nearly 20-acre development at the gateway to the River Arts District and downtown Asheville will revitalize a former hub of commerce and agriculture for the greater Western North Carolina region. Current uses of the site include a stockyard, auto repair and mini-storage facility. In its place, New Belgium will invest in new brewery operations, a distribution center and a hospitality tasting room on the banks of the French Broad River. The company’s investment in stream restoration, storm water improvements, environmental remediation and green building technologies will serve as a model for riverfront renaissance long envisioned by leaders of RiverLink and the Asheville Area Riverfront Redevelopment Commission.

    “After several years of searching we are incredibly excited to have landed in Asheville,” said Kim Jordan, CEO and co-founder of New Belgium. “From the deep sense of community to the rich natural environment and the opportunity to revitalize a brownfield site near a vibrant downtown, Asheville has everything we’ve been looking for in a location for our second brewery.”

    In addition to the 154 new company hires, the brewery is expected to support an additional 260 indirect and induced jobs between industry vendors and suppliers, generating a total of $18.3 million annually in new labor income to families in the greater Asheville Metro Area. Furthermore, new construction is expected to support 1,252 new direct, indirect and induced jobs over the course of development, generating a total of $41.1 million in new labor income.

    ”From the onset, Kim (Jordan) was clear about the company’s respect for our community and commitment to a conscientious and transformational development,” added K. Ray Bailey, Board Chairman of the EDC. “At critical junctures in the past year, New Belgium has demonstrated real leadership and pursued a vision for long-term sustainability over short-term benefit. This announcement marks the beginning of a new era for both the company and our riverfront.”

    Asheville Mayor, Terry Bellamy, commented, “For decades, the City of Asheville has worked to build consensus for the responsible redevelopment of our River District. These efforts are rewarded today with the arrival of New Belgium, a world-class employer that shares our vision for community development and our values of corporate social responsibility.” The investments made by the company will catalyze public infrastructure improvements in nearby roads, sidewalks, bike lanes, water service, greenway and way finding consistent with the Wilma Dykeman Riverway Plan. The infrastructure improvements will be funded in part by a grant from the North Carolina GoldenLeaf Foundation.

    “This pioneering development will do more than grow our tax base and create quality manufacturing jobs. The company will transform a vital stretch of riverfront, add a brand-name destination for visitors and strengthen our well-known craft-brewing community,” said Chairman of the Buncombe County Commission, David Gantt. “We foresee a long and successful future for New Belgium in Buncombe County.”

    Since its founding in 1991, New Belgium Brewing Company has released 25 award-winning Belgian-Style beers, including its best-selling Fat-Tire Amber Ale. By 2011, the employee-owned company was producing over 700,000 barrels annually and distributing New Belgium products to 28 states and the District of Columbia. The company has grown to over 400 employees while earning a reputation with consumers and corporate America as an environmentally, socially and economically conscious employer. The brewer operates the largest private photo-voltaic solar array in Colorado and has donated over $5 million to community non-profits in areas of environmental education and stewardship since 1995.

    The company plans to break ground in the first quarter 2013 and commence hiring in the fourth quarter of 2014. For additional information on New Belgium Brewing Company, please visit http://www.newbelgium.com. For more detail on the project plans, community reaction, maps etc. please
    visit http://www.newbelgiumasheville.com.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  26. mat catastrophe says:

    And here’s another thing:

    “In addition to the 154 new company hires, the brewery is expected to support an additional 260 indirect and induced jobs between industry vendors and suppliers, generating a total of $18.3 million annually in new labor income to families in the greater Asheville Metro Area. Furthermore, new construction is expected to support 1,252 new direct, indirect and induced jobs over the course of development, generating a total of $41.1 million in new labor income. ”

    First, I won’t even pretend to understand how these figures are calculated. I’m sure there’s an entire course devoted to it when you get a MBA but has anyone, ever, actually gone back 5 years down the road and tried to get conclusive figures that claims like this *actually happened*?

    Again, to be very clear, this is not any sort of anti-jobs, anti-business rhetoric – I ask these questions because I feel like a lot of these statistics are plucked out of thin air, and we’re supposed to just accept them and move on.

    That’s the way religion works, not the real world.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  27. Tim Peck says:

    Jobs or no jobs, it is improper for government to pick winners and losers in the economy by doling out corporate welfare with taxpayer money.

    And don’t y’all miss all those Volvo jobs?
    …………………….

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  28. Diogenes says:

    @tim peck

    That’s a fair question. But consider government to be you and me, my family and yours, our neighbors and friends, our grandchildren’s and theirs. We are government. Don’t we have a responsibility to do what’s best for our community? And when that’s using our money to partner with businesses to build an economic future why not. We pay for bombs you don’t pitch a fit. But we want affordable health care, living wage jobs, clean water you go all wobbly.

    ps. why do you time stamp your posts. are they inspected and reviewed before being posted? I’ve noticed this before–the censor has to approve them first? They often appear out of sequence. use to happen to me too but not lately.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  29. shadmarsh says:

    I can (I think) answer that. Mr. Peck’s comments (and a few others) automatically go into the spam collector. I am guessing this is because he was once banned, back when we were doing that sort of thing. No one–that I know of anyway– on the team here knows how to fix that, so one of us has to go pick through the spam to find the legit comments.
    I am guessing he puts the “time stamp” on his posts so our dear readers can notice the discrepancy between the origin of the comment, and the time of its actual arrival here on the scruhoo. It probably stems from that libertarian sense of entitlement that is–sadly– common among that crowd.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  30. Tim Peck says:

    “Don’t we have a responsibility to do what’s best for our community?”

    You may feel a responsibility. I may feel a responsibility. It is not the proper role of government to feel a responsibility. Charity properly belongs in the private sector.

    “And when that’s using our money”

    Our money?! Where did you get the idea that my money is our money?

    “to partner with businesses to build an economic future why not.”

    Why not?! Because it’s coercive. It’s a violation of my right, my right, to use my money, my money, voluntarily as I see fit according to my best judgment. Government coercion is a violation of rights.
    …………………………
    [submitted 4/6/2012 11:46 PM]

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  31. Gordon Smith says:

    Keep promoting the general welfare, Tim.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  32. mat catastrophe says:

    Tim, *your* money is a banknote drawn against the collective wealth of the nation.

    Without some form of collectivism, you have no money.

    Unless you’d like to admit that you’re printing your own.

    In the meantime, is there no one who wants to take up even one of my questions above?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  33. Gordon Smith says:

    My favorite fun fact about the New Belgium deal:

    “Asheville’s designation as Beer City USA didn’t hurt, but what really swung the deal was the city’s dedication to being a sustainable community with reduced reliance on the automobile.” – AC-T

    To all of you who’ve stood up for a greener Asheville, take a bow. And to all of you who’ve advocated for an expanded multimodal transportation network, take a victory lap.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  34. shadmarsh says:

    This city has a long way to go before it can be considered anything other than automobile dominate. Let’s hope this helps open some more eyes to the possibilities of a true multimodal transportation network.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  35. Andrew Dahm says:

    I think the postmodern hippies like Mr. Peck are past homesteading and digging their own latrines, and right about now they’re at Altamont hiring the Hell’s Angels to do security in a kind of “public-private partnership.”

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  36. Tim Peck says:

    “I think the postmodern hippies like Mr. Peck”
    That would be a personal attack. Does this blog have a moderator?
    ………………..

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  37. Andrew Dahm says:

    Get a haircut.

    Just kidding. But seriously, apologies if you took my remark as a personal attack, Tim. However, I would characterize your politics, not you of course, as omphalocentric and narcissistic, not unlike some folks who now run Unilever and Sprint, or Ben and Jerry’s and Credo Mobile, depending on who you talk to.

    The conjoined twins of “me, my money,” and “leave those fat cats alone” is intellectually inconsistent, by the way. Unless you’re a fan of dysentery and lockjaw. Which you may be, and no personal reflection intended. To each their own.

    Thumb up 7

  38. shadmarsh says:

    That would be a personal attack. Does this blog have a moderator?

    We do not have a moderator. We believe in the Free Market. A moderator would be too much like Government theft of liberty.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  39. Andrew Dahm says:

    And I should also apologize for a problem of mine, the inability to distinguish between a “let the free market rule” mentality (which free market, in its wisdom, has given us lawn darts and Menudo) and a certain kind of might-makes-right, power-worshipping, authoritarian kind of personality, often characterized in political terms as fascism.

    Once again, a thousand pardons.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  40. Tim Peck says:

    “We believe in the Free Market.”

    Funny. Of course, you don’t, actually. I get the joke. Haha.

    A free market, should we ever have one, operates under the premise that your property is your own. You set the rules on how it is used so long as that use does not violate another’s rights.

    This weblog has a set of rules for its use that is does not enforce unless its own ox is gored. Then, all of a sudden, everyone is faux outraged. This is inconsistent, hypocritical and dishonest. (As you can see, you decided to make a rather lame joke out of it rather than address the issue seriously like an adult.) But, as I say, you are free to be inconsistent, hypocritical and dishonest if that is your best judgment on how to run a community blog. Good luck with this approach in all that you do.
    ………………………..
    [submitted 4/9/20126:35 AM]

    Thumb up 2

  41. shadmarsh says:

    Tim,

    Here’s to hoping you get laid. I really think it would do you wonders.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  42. A. Chandler says:

    What I would like is for Asheville and Buncombe County to give individuals breaks that would benefit the individual and the community.
    For example, give individuals who are willing to buy foreclosed homes a tax break, lets say for seven years (just pulled that # outta the blue). No taxes to people who buy foreclosed homes for seven years, then the tax rate kicks in. That would also be good for the economy. Real estate agents, businesses, banks make money, families have homes, neighborhoods are benefited, etc.
    If Asheville is handing out deals to benefit the community, why just give them to corporations?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 4

  43. TJ says:

    “Here’s to hoping you get laid. I really think it would do you wonders.”

    I understand the sentiment, but, this IS offensive. That’s what they used to say to lesbians, and women were told their experience of rape should be seen that way.

    I don’t support Tim on much of anything, but, I think this crosses the line of snark and retorts that are normally quite amusing.

    Shad, you may feel this is an overreaction, but, this comes from a sincere place, and, I hope you don’t trivialize it.

    Perhaps, I will be next in “falling out of favor.”

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  44. Davyne Dial says:

    The not with my money crowd, needs to move to a place with no highways, hospitals, schools, fireman, police, military, etc., etc.,etc. In other words, all the assets that are paid for with tax $$$s that make us one of the worlds outstanding nations…even with all our imperfections. Or maybe in spite of our imperfections.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  45. TJ says:

    “Or maybe in spite of our imperfections”

    “The not with my money crowd”

    We do all have inperfections. The flawed thinking of “not with ‘my’
    money” is basic in its’ nature.

    The money did not get created out of thin air. It is forever connected with an ‘other,’ which means it can never be independently ‘mine.’

    Unless someone actually found that proverbial “money tree,” perhaps, even the fountain of youth?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  46. mat catastrophe says:

    Notice that Tim hasn’t denied that he prints his own money. I find that fascinating.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  47. TJ says:

    Mat:

    Do you think he has one of those “funny” plants in his “green”house he prints it on? ;-)

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  48. Davyne Dial says:

    Seriously the anti tax crowd needs to stop with the moot resistance. I don’t know of any democracy that doesn’t have taxes. And it’s been going on for millenia. Oil rich middle eastern totalitarian governments, yes, but democracies…no.

    Their time would be much better spent holding politicians feet to the fire for accountability and efficiency. That, more than anything would insure all taxes taken in were well spent and not going into some black hole, or somebodies pocket.

    The whole Tea Party mindset is just unrealistic.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  49. Tim Peck says:

    “Here’s to hoping you get laid.”

    This would constitute a personal attack and, as such, is a violation of the comments policy.

    Sad to see that you still have no arguments.
    ………………….
    [submitted 4/9/2012 8:04 PM]

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  50. shadmarsh says:

    It’s a sincere wish. Seriously, everyone needs love.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  51. Tim Peck says:

    “It’s a sincere wish.”

    And mine is a sincere wish as well. I hope someday you can argue your way out of a paper bag rather than endlessly fall back on juvenile insults. It would be truly refreshing. And quite surprising, really. Good luck with that.
    ………………….
    [submitted 4/9/2012 8:52 PM]

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  52. mat catastrophe says:

    TJ,

    I do not spend even the slightest bit of time dwelling on what may or may not be in Mr. Peck’s dwelling.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  53. TJ says:

    Shad: surely you know love does not necessarily = getting “laid.”
    (whoever came up with that term, anyway?}

    “It would be truly refreshing. And quite surprising, really. Good luck with that.”

    And, Tim, with this remark (also a personal attack, you know – with the “surprising” retort), I no longer feel sympathetic toward your position on this blog. You are provoking a response, as well, and, are in that instance, victimizing yourself.

    “Good luck with that…” and, with that attitude, I doubt you will have much “luck.” That you have a view of being the victim here is unfounded, as you are quite capable of stirring things up all by yourself…no help needed from the peanut gallery.

    So, don’t accuse someone of personally attacking you, if you are not willing to hold yourself to that same standard. It IS disingenuous, at the very least, and, to be certain, annoying.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  54. TJ says:

    Mat:

    Neither do I, really. I’m not even sure he has one ;-0

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  55. shadmarsh says:

    Shad: surely you know love does not necessarily = getting “laid.”

    Yes, excuse my crassness. I’m crass sometimes.

    Tim,

    Why would I argue or debate with you? You are convinced you are right, I am convinced Objectivism is sociopathic drivel. Do you really think we are going to come to some sort of understanding? Or are you just hoping to educate me? And besides, after watching you aggressively berate that young lady bartender at Sazerac over a problem with the wifi last year, I’ve decided to no longer give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  56. TJ says:

    “Yes, excuse my crassness. I’m crass sometimes.”

    I noticed ;-). I can excuse that b/c of your honesty.

    “Do you really think we are going to come to some sort of understanding? Or are you just hoping to educate me?”

    Shad, you know you two will never “kiss and make up.” And, if Tim thinks he will ‘educate’ you, I think HE needs to go back to school.

    It seems the greatest gift Tim has to offer at this time is seeing how patient we can be, and, how tolerant we liberals actually are.

    Through Occupy, I have found I can be quite tolerant, but, I choose not to tolerate disruptivenes.

    And, THAT, is what Tim seems to excel at. I’m still amazed we actually feed into that. It seems the only thing he seems to understand is completely ignoring him/his comments…like a child, or the injured narcissist.

    Is that a personal attack? Am I banned now? I’m just practicing assessments, really.

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  57. Tim Peck says:

    “So, don’t accuse someone of personally attacking you, if you are not willing to hold yourself to that same standard.”

    I will hold myself to the same “standard” as you. I have found, in the course of my life, that what is oftentimes good for the goose is also quite good for the gander.

    Right, goose?
    ……………………….
    [submitted 4/10/2012 6:14 AM]

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  58. Tim Peck says:

    I’d like to thank everyone for making this thread about me; once again. I am much more interesting than Business Development. You guys are the best.
    ……………………..
    [submitted 4/10/2012 6:20 AM]

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  59. Gordon Smith says:

    Tim – since this thing keeps happening at various forums where the threads keep “being about” you, it might be time to ask yourself whether this has something to do with you. It’s either that, or the rest of the world has gone mad. Mad, I say!

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  60. TJ says:

    “I hope someday you can argue your way out of a paper bag rather than endlessly fall back on juvenile insults”

    “Right, goose?”

    REALLY?!

    Wow!

    It’s like my 15 yo telling my 10 yo about being rude to him, and he says it in a rude manner.

    “I’d like to thank everyone for making this thread about me; once again.”

    There ya’ll go. My assessment?

    Textbook narcissist. Either that, or the adolescent drama bit.

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  61. TJ says:

    “You guys are the best.”

    Well, thank you. I guess I can support you in this one final thing
    ;-).

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  62. TJ says:

    “It’s either that, or the rest of the world has gone mad. Mad, I say!”

    Well, the world IS pretty mad. Somehow, this is beyond that. It’s more like:

    The world has gone mad b/c of people like this(insert your own category – narcissistic politicians, narcissistic religious leaders, and other such groups).

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  63. TJ says:

    I changed computers, and now, I cannot edit my comments. What did I do wrong?

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