Mar
28

Justice for Trayvon

By

From the email inbox:

Interfaith Vigil
This Sunday April 1st @ 4PM
Reuter Terrace – across from the fire department on the terrace above City County Plaza Park

We invite you to join us for an Interfaith Vigil this Sunday in remembrance of Trayvon Martin, the African American teenager who was shot and killed recently in Sanford, Florida.

An ecumenical group of area religious leaders will pray with us, rally, and speak out for justice in a nonviolent way.

In solidarity with Trayvon, please wear a hoodie.

Sponsored by the Martin Luther King, Jr. Association of Asheville & Buncombe County
P.O. Box 328; Asheville, NC, 28802
335-6896, 281-1624
www.mlkasheville.org


Categories : Action, Events, Local, National, Race

Comments

  1. TJ says:

    Excellent!

    I spoke to someone on the APD last night, and he stated that the latest news sounded “fishy” to most officers there. He also agreed that if it were an African American male shooting a caucasion boy, the response would be MUCH different.

    It’s astounding to watch people’s brain in a state of freeze, and unable to see reality in front of them.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  2. Mark Cates says:

    Have we learned nothing from Richard Jewell & the Duke Rape case?

    Hopefully, the event will take the time to discuss the 6470 blacks murdered in the US in 2010. Sadly, 90% of the murders were black on black. These deserve no less attention.

    TJ,

    Do you think the officer meant if it was an event like this one a few weeks ago in Kansas City?

    Teens set kid on fire for being ‘white boy’

    A 13-year-old boy who police say was doused with gasoline and lit on fire last week while walking home from school is recovering from first-degree burns to his face and head.

    The boy was just two blocks from his home in Kansas City Tuesday when two teenagers began to follow him and then attacked him, his mother, Melissa Coon, said.

    Police have described the suspects as black 16-year-olds, while the victim is white.

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station

    Thumb up 12

  3. mat catastrophe says:

    Mr. Cates, thank you for removing all doubt from my mind that you’re a completely clueless individual without the first single original thought rolling around in your cavernous head.

    You talk about connecting the Trayvon Martin case with those of Richard Jewell and the Duke Lacrosse team, then you go on to cite the completely unverified claim of a 13 year old about whom the only thing that is certain is that he was burned with gasoline that was in a can his father had left on their front porch.

    You ever make up a ridiculous lie to cover up your own stupidity? Holding up this story out of Kansas City as some kind of false equivalence to the story of Trayvon Martin is not only blatantly racist pandering, but it’s likely to blow up in your collective conservative faces. No pun intended.

    Now, to be fair, there’s certainly been a lot of information and misinformation and corrected information that’s been coming out of Sanford, Florida in the last month. But here’s one piece of information that no one can really contradict: George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin and walked away, uncharged with any crime and without having to defend himself in a court of law.

    Can you say you’re really comfortable with any legislation that allows that?

    Thumb up 18

  4. TJ says:

    Well, Tom, I have to admit, it is very difficult to be civil in these kinds of comments.

    I agree with Mat. No matter the color, I would object to that process being undermined.

    Mark, I find it sad, indeed, when ANY such thing happens. What I find sadder is that we even have “color” in the mix to consider. I find it appalling that ANYONE would do such things, young-old-any nationality-class, etc. That color even comes up as an issue, I think is appalling.

    That is gets brushed over BECAUSE of color, I find more agregious.

    That you have to “throw in” an example to seemingly make Trayvon’s death less significant is truly sad. If you knew me pesonally, you would know I am just as passionate about the value of life, regardless of the details. I have seen enough death in my life to fill many Stephen King novels, and I find it highly insulting that you would presume to make it seem I have no awareness of the many injustices that arise in the world- any color, any age, any gender, etc. My heart breaks many times, but, I don’t feel a need to distract or minimize it to make it “all right” in the world again. I would hope your death would be no less significant because you are a white male vs. any other characteristic. I find ANY violence as senseless, and as such, adding “issues” to them make no more sensible.

    But, I guess, as humans, our minds are bent in that direction, no matter how misled the attempt.

    Okay, Tom, I will stop there, before I get censored for some reason…

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  5. Davyne Dial says:

    “Have we learned nothing from Richard Jewell & the Duke Rape case?”

    Those examples do not apply here. Jewel was wrongly apprehended and held due to failed profiling and Duke rape charges were prosecutor jumping the gun and wrongfully charged those students. That is not the case here. No one has been “wrongly profiled” or charged by authorities. That seems painfully obvious to me.

    God help us if all the persecuted or fear driven gun totin’ extremists decide they’re free to defend themselves from the rest of the world they perceive as dangerous.

    Thumb up 9

  6. Diogenes says:

    Stupidity is its own excuse.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  7. Mark Cates says:

    Matt,

    [Mr. Cates, thank you for removing all doubt from my mind that you’re a completely clueless individual...]

    It’s always interesting to see how harshly progressives judge those who might take a different perspective than they do. As someone who lived in Atlanta at the time and was down around there that night, Richard Jewell was my very first thought.

    [You talk about connecting the Trayvon Martin case with those of Richard Jewell and the Duke Lacrosse team...]

    I only posed a question. Your own bias read into it what you wanted to see. However, after reading the comments, it appears the answer is that some learned nothing from those incidents. So I guess I have my answer.

    Interesting how you are able to withhold judgment in the incident I cited, but you appear to “know” all of the facts in the other case. You really are making my point for me…

    [Now, to be fair, there’s certainly been a lot of information and misinformation…]

    Finally, we get to be “fair”… which was the motivation of my question. It appears you do understand that rushing to judgment is not the right path.

    [George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin and walked away, uncharged with any crime and without having to defend himself in a court of law.]

    No, we don’t know that at all. He could very well be charged and have to defend himself. The police are performing an investigation. That’s standard procedure. Perhaps we should withhold judgment until we have more facts… as we should have in the Richard Jewell and the Duke Rape case.

    [Can you say you’re really comfortable with any legislation that allows that?]

    It appears you are not familiar with the law that you appear to be referencing in Florida. Since, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, maybe you could elaborate on exactly what Florida statute you “feel” allowed this.

    TJ,
    [That is gets brushed over BECAUSE of color, I find more agregious.]

    How is it begin brushed over? Seems like it is getting tons of attention to me. Rallies all around the country!

    [That you have to “throw in” an example to seemingly make Trayvon’s death less significant is truly sad.]

    That only happened in your mind. I threw in an example, pointing out how an incident of reverse color can happen and it doesn’t “necessarily” make national media attention. I never made any comment whatsoever about significance. It says a great deal more about you and how you are willing to make assumptions about another, than it does about me.

    [If you knew me pesonally, you would know I am just as passionate about the value of life, regardless of the details.]

    I appreciate your Pro-Life stance. If you knew me personally you would never make the assumptions about me that you have.

    [I find it highly insulting that you would presume to make it seem I have no awareness of the many injustices that arise in the world- any color, any age, any gender, etc.]

    Fortunately, I never did that. I only pointed out one incident that has not made national media attention. But if we are going to talk about being insulting, your assumptions about me certainly are.

    [I would hope your death would be no less significant because you are a white male vs. any other characteristic.]

    Let me get this straight… you accuse me of making the death less significant… you accuse me of being insulting… and now you are talking about my death? Geez.

    Davyne,

    [Those examples do not apply here. Jewel was wrongly apprehended and held due to failed profiling and Duke rape charges were prosecutor jumping the gun and wrongfully charged those students. That is not the case here.]

    What is also painfully obvious is you do not see how my examples of rushing to judgment can come back and bite someone in the butt. From that perspective they are very relevant.

    [God help us if all the persecuted or fear driven gun totin’ extremists decide they’re free to defend themselves from the rest of the world they perceive as dangerous.]

    God help us if we can’t learn that we should wait for the facts…

    Thumb up 9

  8. TJ says:

    Mark,

    If I said things you felt were offensive, I apologize. It is not my intention to cause further division in society in any context.

    As for assumptions, and “reading into,” I believe that tends to happen when people do not really know each other, and only have one medium to communicate. Body posture, facial changes, etc., are pretty much lost (and, don’t get me started on the ills I perceive on the internet and the falseness of “friends” who “like” us, etc.

    I can only go by what you write, and you chose to bring up examples extraneous to the matter at hand, feeling it is an example of the same issue. When I say what I wrote, and your response is:

    ” I never made any comment whatsoever about significance. It says a great deal more about you and how you are willing to make assumptions about another, than it does about me.”

    Well, that speaks volumes…in order to state that I am “willing to make assumptions” is an assumption in and of itself. The significance is implicit by the fact you are bringing an additional topic to the current conversation. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend once. I was sharing my angst over someone saying I should “not care so much,” when I talked about how I see global connections, not just our immediate circles. He asked if I would care as much about someone across the world dying as I would if he, as closer friend, died. I paused, then responded, “well, actually, yes.” He seemed insulted that I did regard him more highly, rather than accepting that my passion to show care for anyone includes everyone. I would wonder what it would be like to have a singular conversation, rather than bringing in global examples (which I am mor than happy to accomidate, but, it would probably bore others). Trayvon had value, the man had value. Somewhere along the way, he bought into the illusion that one person is more important than another – for any number of reasons, which we are not privvy to.

    As to my comment about your death (and you want to point out how others read into says much about them), you show a bit of yourself. I never wished death upon you, or any such thing, I was simply extrapolating from what you said. In fact, I stated CLEARLY that I would hope your life would have no less value over another’s. Sartre talks about the “I” not existing apart from the “other.” Our language reflects how we skew things within any given culture. Therefore, some are more life-affirming than others, and those, such as ours, place a dollar figure or status rating on which we attend to more.

    I watched this happen in CA with OJ Simpson. Of course, he had played the game well enough to have a following, and money to fit into the other circles. After speaking with various lawyers, professors, colleagues, and general audiences, I found several factors in the outcome. The most obvious, of course, is the money.

    Well, that’s what drew me to Occupy to begin with, so I’ll stop there.

    While I don’t agree with many things you seem to hold to, I have no doubt that we would find more in common than we might think on the surface. Of course, you wouldn’t know unless you really got to know me, but, I don’t know what your local eatery is, and you seem quite content to comment on the ‘net.

    I find people VERY fascinating, and, I like getting to know more people. I will say that I feel no need for pretense, on blogs or RL. I get annoyed when people use their words to hide, and I think most politicians have this polished to a science/art that would cause some sociopaths to feel envious of.

    Of course, that is not something most people would recognize in themselves. Admittedly, I enjoy words, and ideas, and I have fun playing with them, and exploring the surface and deeper meanings. I admit I enjoy testing the limits and boundaries of communication and reality, and meanings…(it’s not ALL fun and games), so, really, I should thank you for providing a live entertainment as I go about the business of life, and trying to work toward a better world(which I think many people think they are, no matter how it affects others).

    And, finally, you said, “I appreciate your Pro-Life stance. If you knew me personally you would never make the assumptions about me that you have.”

    Yes, I do value life deeply, for reasons most will never know. I do NOT make assumptions about you, I simply reflect on what you have said. Like my 15 yo knows by now, even if we are not “meaning” to affect someone in a specific way, what matters is what others experience. If the “other” does not find it fun or funny, then that needs to be respected. I have said more than once on SH, if anyone REALLY wants to “know” someone, I believe it is more fruitful to meet personally. Otherwise, and even then, “knowing” someone is an illusion, even in the best of circumstances. So- let’s NEITHER of us pretend that we “know” the other, since to REALLY know another can take a lifetime (such as in marriage, or long-term relationships).

    So, write on, and I look forward to another opportunity to be prompted to read Being and Nothingness with my morning hot chocolate ;-).

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  9. mat catastrophe says:

    >>Matt,

    First off, my name is not “Matt”. It’s “Mat” with one ‘T’, which is where the word “Matthew” splits into syllables, according to the dictionary.

    >>It’s always interesting to see how harshly progressives judge those who might take a different perspective than they do.

    Second, don’t presume to know me well enough to call me a “progressive”.

    Third, don’t play that tired old “liberals and progressives don’t like people with different opinions” nonsense. That line doesn’t work with me because I won’t pretend that I give everyone’s nonsense equal time or consideration. I don’t mind different opinions but I dislike ignorant, uninformed, or flat-out poorly constructed opinions.

    As a general rule, I find most “conservative” thought to be absolutely morally, intellectually, and culturally bankrupt, belonging to a dead world that is better left behind so that the rest of us can move on. I suppose if that’s to be considered “progress”, then I might be a “progressive”.

    >>As someone who lived in Atlanta at the time and was down around there that night, Richard Jewell was my very first thought.

    And you presented that here without the slightest bit of context or elucidation. If I misread where you were going with it, I ask to be excused for that. As I said, it’s poorly constructed ideas and opinions that rankle and I just don’t know where you’re going with all of it. Perhaps you could explain how this case connects with Richard Jewell, so that we can know what it is you’re talking about because I certainly don’t have a clue at this point.

    >>I only posed a question. Your own bias read into it what you wanted to see. However, after reading the comments, it appears the answer is that some learned nothing from those incidents. So I guess I have my answer.

    Your question was: “Have we learned nothing from the Richard Jewell and Duke rape case?” and then you went off to “black on black” crime. My biases came into play because you didn’t build any sort of argument around your question, you just left it up to each reader to create their own meaning to your words. That’s very post-modern of you.

    I suppose you think that asking a question is enough – but it isn’t, unless you want to continue having the same sort of vapid back and forth conversations that you seem comfortable having. You’ve asked a complex question without anything else behind it to let us know where you’re going with it, so let me pose to you a simple question: What, exactly, should we get from those incidents in relation to this case?

    >>Interesting how you are able to withhold judgment in the incident I cited, but you appear to “know” all of the facts in the other case. You really are making my point for me…

    I have to make your points for you. You don’t seem to know what you’re trying to say.

    >>Finally, we get to be “fair”… which was the motivation of my question. It appears you do understand that rushing to judgment is not the right path.

    Oh, here’s the motivation of your question. Completely absent in your original post but now you’ve found it. Bravo.

    >>No, we don’t know that at all. He could very well be charged and have to defend himself. The police are performing an investigation. That’s standard procedure. Perhaps we should withhold judgment until we have more facts… as we should have in the Richard Jewell and the Duke Rape case.

    So, why didn’t you just say that in your original post instead of bringing up the false equivalencies of black-on-black crime and the case in Kansas City?

    Is it because you’re just regurgitating talking points? The case in Kansas City has been all over the conservative and hard-right white power sites the last two weeks.

    >>[Can you say you’re really comfortable with any legislation that allows that?]

    It appears you are not familiar with the law that you appear to be referencing in Florida. Since, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, maybe you could elaborate on exactly what Florida statute you “feel” allowed this.

    Let’s look at Florida statutes, then, shall we?

    776.032?Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

    (1)?A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

    (2)?A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

    (3)?The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

    So, without an arrest and a trial, it seems that police and/or prosecutors are allowed to make the judgment over which cases are “justified” and which ones are questionable enough to warrant an arrest.

    Or did I miss something?

    (dear admins – HTML is broken – what’s up with that?)

    Thumb up 5

  10. Gordon Smith says:

    My position on the matter is that when someone shoots someone else dead, and there isn’t evidence that the shooter was in mortal danger, that person ought to be taken into custody. Seems only prudent.

    Then we have due process. We call it the judicial system.

    This shooter was not charged with anything. Trayvon is dead. There will not be due process.

    This is not justice.

    If in some remote possibility, the shooter was correct to shoot the unarmed Trayvon Martin, who he pursued and referred to with a racial epithet, it would be great to have that justification illuminated through investigation and trial. Otherwise we’ll all just opine on the internet. It’s a failure of Florida’s justice system and the illustration of how the Florida law looks in practice.

    Thumb up 12

  11. Diogenes says:

    I don’t think Mark Cates has been paying attention because he wrote: “the police are performing an investigation. ”

    That they were not so doing was in part the reason this case became such an outrage. They were told to stand down, not to charge Zimmerman, not to pursue an investigation. By some accounts by the State’s attorney. Whatever investigation underway today is a result of an order by the Governor to appoint a special persecutor.

    See, Mr. Cates? Often the world doesn’t work they way you presume, or think it should. That you can’t or won’t see that is why thoughtful people, people who vote based on reason, fact and a sense of justice for all–instead of knee-jerk (Paleomammalian brain) emotion– can’t take you seriously.

    But I hope you keep posting here. It’s useful to learn how conservatives like you think.

    Thumb up 6

  12. Ascend of Asheville says:

    This thread should be in some textbook somewhere:
    Example A: “Conservative intellectual” makes apples to oranges comparisons, and vague assertions loaded with code language intended to raise the hackles of thinking people everywhere.
    Example B: Left-leaning proletariat falls for the right wing ruse and jumps in with both feet to defend all that is right and holy in the world against the infidel. They over do it, because anything worth doing is worth some hyperbole as well.
    Example C: Right winger comes back having been oh, so insulted by the willingness of everybody to misinterpret him so badly, and uses this as an indictment of left-wing-ism generally, re-defining his arguments and vague apple/orange analogies as needed to prove how reasonable he is compared to those loose-cannon lefties.
    Example D: Lefties are left frothing at the mouth in frustration after having made their original position meaningless by back-tracking, apologizing, clarifying, and asserting their respect for the right winger and in general doing everything they can to make themselves seem malleable and weak to said right-winger, when in reality they should have ignored the fuck-tard to begin with and replied with nothing but sarcasm and disdain for his pretentious bullshit, as there was never any valid point in what he said to begin with.
    Conclusion: That is what being rhetorically punked by a conservative feels like. Learn to spot it, and don’t fall for it.
    Class dismissed.

    Thumb up 11

  13. Davyne Dial says:

    What is also painfully obvious is you do not see how my examples of rushing to judgment can come back and bite someone in the butt. From that perspective they are very relevant.”

    If questioning the authorities on their unwillingness go do their job is a “rush to judgement” then I reckon I’m just guilty as charged Mark.

    Now who’s rushing to judgement???

    Thumb up 4

  14. Mark Cates says:

    TJ,

    [If I said things you felt were offensive, I apologize.]
    No problem.
    [I can only go by what you write, and you chose to bring up examples extraneous to the matter at hand, feeling it is an example of the same issue.]

    I start with the assumption that everyone is well intentioned, but we may have different priorities and experiences. However, it was only extraneous in your opinion… and others. To many people it is not extraneous at all. So you have a feeling that it is not the same issue, however others would respectfully disagree.
    [Well, that speaks volumes…in order to state that I am “willing to make assumptions” is an assumption in and of itself.]

    You made an assumption based on things I did “not” say in my post. Things you believed implicit. I made an assumption on comments explicitly existing in your post. A very big difference between the two.
    [Trayvon had value, the man had value.]

    And I never implied he did not. I only added that thousands of other black males had just as much value and we need to focus on that also. Possibly moreso, given the state of our black community.

    [As to my comment about your death…]

    I thought it was weird that you had a list of accusations about me, to which you concluded something about my death. I thought it was weird, not serious.

    [I have no doubt that we would find more in common than we might think on the surface. Of course, you wouldn’t know unless you really got to know me, but, I don’t know what your local eatery is, and you seem quite content to comment on the ‘net.]

    Quite a few who post here have found it odd that I have wanted to sit down and talk with them, as of yet no one has taken me up on my offers. If you had any idea about me at all, you would laugh at your own statement. First, I just ran for city council and invested a great deal of my own money because I think there are very important issues not being dealt with in local gov’t. That’s a good bit more than commenting on the “net”. Second, we eat out so often that a local restaurant named a meal after my son. The only person in this town that has a legitimate claim to eating out more than me is someone that eats out every meal. ; – )

    [I do NOT make assumptions about you, I simply reflect on what you have said.]

    I would suggest you reflect your preconceived ideas about what I said. Instead of giving the benefit of the doubt, you started with the worst possible explanation and then went on from there.

    As I pointed out above I have asked quite a few here to lunch… so when are we going? Are you going to be the first to take me up on my offer?

    Thumb up 10

  15. Mark Cates says:

    Gordon,

    [My position on the matter is that when someone shoots someone else dead, and there isn’t evidence that the shooter was in mortal danger...]

    Most likely, the police know something you don’t. That may not be the case and then that too will be investigated.

    We will all learn more as they continue with the process.

    Thumb up 8

  16. Mark Cates says:

    All right Diogenes, prove your case with facts.

    [knee-jerk (Paleomammalian brain) emotion]

    So much hate…

    Thumb up 8

  17. David Cohen says:

    Mark, I will have lunch with you. My schedule is not set yet for next week, but if you send me your e-mail address I can get back to you when my time is set, and we can discuss where and when.
    david@cohencidents.com
    I agree that context, facial expressions and body language are essential to understanding someone’s meaning when they speak. Too much gets misinterpreted when we just read; everyone uses the written word differently.
    I will leave my sketchbook at home.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 5

  18. Mark Cates says:

    Ascend,

    Your interpretation is much more entertaining than what actually happened. It’s really just the nature of the Internet and people’s willingness to seek out the worst in others, as opposed to granting them the same benefit of the doubt they would for those who share ideology. On the far left and right, ideology often outweighs understanding and common sense.

    I just asked a quick question as a way to remind everyone about rushing to judgment. Nothing more, nothing less. Then I spoke to the point about black on black crime because that is inarguably a tragedy. For me it also ties into unemployment in the black community, which is nearly always twice as bad as the unemployment rate. So both of those thoughts were the basis of that comment.

    Then I gave one quick example specifically to TJ, were people were not rushing to judgment in a possibly racially motivated case that sounds horrible.

    However, I didn’t see the need to write a thesis explaining everything to Mat’s satisfaction. Just a quick post on the Internet among “friends”. Clearly, the “friends” part is a figment of my imagination.

    The comparison was not apples to oranges. They all involved rushing to judgment before having all of the facts. I don’t see how that is healthy for us a country. It appears we have learned very little from our past mistakes.

    [when in reality they should have ignored the fuck-tard]

    Seriously? See your own post, if that is how you are going to refer to me. There’s no call for that.

    Thumb up 8

  19. Mark Cates says:

    Davyne,

    [If questioning the authorities on their unwillingness go do their job is a “rush to judgement” then I reckon I’m just guilty as charged Mark.]

    I missed where you were doing that. I thought you were dismissing my comments.

    There is nothing wrong with questioning. Have at it. I am sure you will also give me the space to question whether we should be questioning so strongly, with so little facts at our disposal. And just like I see how you are not amoral to do so, you will see that I am not either. Sounds good to me, how about you?

    I made my comment based on my work in the gov’t where we would be working out butts off on an issue that the press was saying we were ignoring.

    That may or may not be the case here. Frankly, we don’t know yet.

    Thumb up 8

  20. Dixiegirlz says:

    Mark, The liberals are very well “making hay” with this tragedy or crime…which ever the case may be, will eventually out. BUT both sides of the political landscape do this. It’s the environment we live in.

    Still, it appears that actions or non actions that are questionable occurred. SO people are questioning,. …each in their own fashion.

    Thumb up 5

  21. Davyne Dial says:

    I just asked a quick question as a way to remind everyone about rushing to judgment. Nothing more, nothing less.”

    Additionally, national furor over what looks like (at the very least) gross incompetence is appropriate.

    This quote from a commentary in the Financial Times;

    ‘A national furore ensued after local authorities decided not to charge Mr Zimmerman, citing Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, which offers protection to people who kill in self-defence. Florida’s governor and attorney-general appointed a special prosecutor to investigate and the US Department of Justice began looking into the question of whether federal civil-rights laws were violate.

    “High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fad7b78e-78c2-11e1-9f49-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1qciwFZiw

    Thumb up 2

  22. Ascend of Asheville says:

    I talked to my teenage daughter, and she tells me that “fuck-tard” is actually a term of endearment in the high schools now, so it would probably be considered jumping to a conclusion to see that as an indication of intent to insult. You know these kids today. Then when Dad tries to use the term it just comes out all wrong. People should stick to the slang of their own kind generation.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  23. Mark Cates says:

    Mat,

    [First off, my name is not “Matt”. It’s “Mat” with one ‘T’, which is where the word “Matthew” splits into syllables, according to the dictionary.]

    My apologies for typing your name incorrectly. I also apologize for putting you in the position of having to do the extra work of referencing the dictionary in order to provide such a thorough explanation.

    [So, why didn’t you just say that in your original post instead of bringing up the false equivalencies of black-on-black crime and the case in Kansas City?]

    Because I have a life and I thought the point was obvious, along with the fact that I made no equivalency with black-on-black crime. You did that. Why didn’t you ask me to clarify my point before rushing to judgment? Ironic, to say the least. Regardless, black-on-black crime deserves more attention from all of us, along with the levels of unemployment on the black community.

    [Second, don’t presume to know me well enough to call me a “progressive”.]

    Okay, I will do my best to leave all the presuming to you. Let me rephrase, “It’s always interesting to see how harshly the mostly progressive posters and the few others at this blog, judge those who might take a different perspective.

    [I suppose if that’s to be considered “progress”, then I might be a “progressive”.]

    So I was right afterall? Okay, but that’s you labeling yourself now, not me.

    [I don’t mind different opinions but I dislike ignorant, uninformed, or flat-out poorly constructed opinions.]

    So those who disagree with you are ignorant, uninformed and so on because they don’t take the time to write a post to your complete satisfaction? You appear to be confirming my comment about judging.

    [As a general rule, I find most “conservative” thought to be absolutely morally, intellectually, and culturally bankrupt, belonging to a dead world that is better left behind so that the rest of us can move on.]

    Again, confirming my original point about judging others harshly.

    [As I said, it’s poorly constructed ideas and opinions that rankle and I just don’t know where you’re going with all of it.]

    I would suggest it is your willingness to quickly assume all the worst possible intentions and not give the benefit of the doubt,followed by a request for clarfication.

    [Perhaps you could explain how this case connects with Richard Jewell… ]

    I thought it was so obvious that there was no need to do so, however the connection is that many rush to judgment before having all the facts in highly charged situations. This leads to creating tragedy out of tragedy. That’s sad.

    [You’ve asked a complex question without anything else behind it to let us know where you’re going with it]

    I was unaware at what level of detail I was supposed to keep you informed of my thoughts. Atleast now we are a step up from ignorant and uniformed. It appears my brain is capable of forming complex questions.

    [Let’s look at Florida statutes, then, shall we?]

    Certainly… I have seen no determination about the laws you cited applying in this case. So how can the law be used to “allow” it if we don’t know if it is being applied? It may or may not. Can you say that it has definitively been applied one way or the other? You could be right, we just don’t know yet.

    Also, the law only the deals with justifiable use of force. Can you answer if that determination has been made yet? I understand you take issue with the law… that’s fine. We just don’t know if it “allowed” it since we don’t know if it has been applied.

    Also, as you can see from the description there has to be probable cause. Are you saying you are comfortable arresting someone when there is not probable cause? I doubt it, but maybe you believe there should be an exception in this case or believe the determination should have already been made?

    [So, without an arrest and a trial, it seems that police and/or prosecutors are allowed to make the judgment over which cases are “justified” and which ones are questionable enough to warrant an arrest.]

    Or more precisely, it is the job of the police and investigators to determine probable cause, then make an arrest. It appears you believe there is probable cause and an arrest should have already been made. Maybe? The police and investigators appear to disagree with you or are making sure to dot their I’s and cross their t’s.
    If they determine probable cause, then I bet we see them move forward. The worst case would be for them to act so quickly as to screw up their case, one way or the other.

    Thumb up 8

  24. Tom Sullivan says:

    This thread is getting mighty weedy. Interesting, thought provoking, lively back-and-forth. Good stuff if people can not get too personal, please. Distracts from your points and makes these long comments harder to follow.

    The upside of this particular tragedy is the spotlight it throws on these bills. In the post-2010 election flurry of legislation, much passed below the radar.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  25. Mister Smug says:

    Hey Bugg: What’s the adage that involves arguing on the Internet and the Special Olympics?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  26. Davyne Dial says:

    Looks like some folks have a petulant bone to pick over perceived slights instead of discussing justice or the lack there off, or the reasoning behind why this situation does not warrant justice.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  27. Jason Bugg says:

    @Mister Smug

    I think it has something to do with fucking yuppies using the word “y’all”.

    Thumb up 0

  28. TJ says:

    Mark,

    “First, I just ran for city council and invested a great deal of my own money because I think there are very important issues not being dealt with in local gov’t.”

    If memory serves me (and many times, it does not ;-)), you responded to candidate ?’s with overwhelming ideas that gov’t should not be involved in MANY, if not most, matters addressed. I’m still curious why you ran, if you felt there was not much to be done (I know, I know, I’m making broad strokes here…it just seemed “weird” to me).

    Anyway, sure. I’m game. I see people I haven’t met as potential friends, or, if nothing else, a way to deepen the human experience. I don’t generally give out personal info, but if you like, one of the Hooligans can give you my posted edress. In the case, you may not have that communication, just comment and say you need that. Whether I would be the first or not, I think it would be interesting. And – I can’t very well ask someone else to value something if I am not comfortable with it myself. Next week is fairly open, but with meetings with Occupy I attend, and my kids, I would probably find an earlier meet better. Too bad they don’t have a Baker’s Square resturaunt out here. But, with your experience, I trust you have a multitude of ideas. I just don’t “do” spicy, as in Indian cuisines.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  29. TJ says:

    Well, David, I had rather hoped you could bring it. ;-)

    I would love to see how you “interpret” it as an artist, or what piece of me would be used for the pic. Probably my headphones.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  30. TJ says:

    “On the far left and right, ideology often outweighs understanding and common sense.”

    I guess I am glad I am a more central leftist. Maybe I should go back and redo that little test. Everyone here take it?

    Mark, I am ALL for authorities “thoroughly investigating,” hopefully, with the outcome of “just” ice which could outdo issues Solomon dealt with.

    I do NOT feel that stalling a case is always helpful (one friend of mine had to wait 2 years before her daughter, Jeanie, was laid to rest, because the local authorities in Madison Co. were feared by many, and her ex did not have to tell them where her body was, and he was able to use that as a bargaining chip to get a lighter sentence).

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  31. Mark Cates says:

    Davyne,

    [Looks like some folks have a petulant bone to pick over perceived slights instead of discussing justice or the lack there off, or the reasoning behind why this situation does not warrant justice.]

    Some people also seem like they have all the facts at hand, when that is simply an impossibility. Who doesn’t want justice? I can’t find anyone that said or implied that. I would suggest both parties are due the utmost justice possible. Surely, you don’t disagree with that?

    I don’t know about perceived slights, but here’s a list of rude, mean and hateful comments from this thread:

    when in reality they should have ignored the fuck-tard
    completely clueless
    single original thought rolling around in your cavernous head.
    make up a ridiculous lie to cover up your own stupidity?
    blatantly racist pandering
    you have to “throw in” an example to seemingly make Trayvon’s death less significant is truly sad
    I find it highly insulting that you would presume
    no matter how misled the attempt.
    I won’t pretend that I give everyone’s nonsense equal time or consideration
    I dislike ignorant, uninformed, or flat-out poorly constructed opinions.
    I find most “conservative” thought to be absolutely morally, intellectually, and culturally bankrupt,
    continue having the same sort of vapid back and forth conversations that you seem comfortable having.
    I don’t think Mark Cates has been paying attention
    See, Mr. Cates? Often the world doesn’t work they way you presume, or think it should
    l–instead of knee-jerk (Paleomammalian brain) emotion– can’t take you seriously.
    petulant bone to pick over perceived slights

    And of course this to round it out.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 5

  32. Mark Cates says:

    TJ,

    [If memory serves me (and many times, it does not ), you responded to candidate ?’s with overwhelming ideas that gov’t should not be involved in MANY, if not most, matters addressed]

    Your memory serves you incorrectly. I wrote a 17 page plan detailing concrete steps local gov’t could take for economic development.

    Followed by a detailed plan local government could take to raise awareness as related to minorities and job development. At the end of the day, that community is hurting the most.

    [I do NOT feel that stalling a case is always helpful]

    Who does feel that way? Isn’t it a possiblity that it may not be stalling at all, but fact finding? Isn’t there a big difference between the two?

    My email is mark@markcates.com.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 5

  33. Mark Cates says:

    ABC and NBC claimed Zimmerman said:

    “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”

    But based on the tapes the the truth looks more like this:

    Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”

    911 operator: “Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?”

    Zimmerman: “He looks black.”

    Zimmerman could be guilty as all get out. I have no idea whatsoever. I do know that many are allowing their emotions to get out in front of the law. While that is understandable, I don’t think that is helpful… but here at this blog, I appear to be alone in that respect.

    I would repeat the question I posed at the beginning, but I have learned the answer… the hard way. I thought injecting a rational question into the thread would promote a bit of common sense and introspection, before rushing to judgment. I was mistaken.

    Thumb up 6

  34. mat catastrophe says:

    Are you finished?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  35. Mark Cates says:

    Nope.

    I suppose now I will be heading off to pick up the money the BCGOP pays to the Republicans that Tom mentioned in another thread. (If only we even had a building to “refinance”.)

    Now I am.

    Thumb up 5

  36. Davyne Dial says:

    MC “petulant bone to pick over perceived slights”

    Mark I suggest you develop a tougher skin.

    Meantime a special prosecutor has been brought into the situation. For me, that is what was needed, to correct a perceived lack of interest by local authorities.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  37. Gordon Smith says:

    Mr. Cates,

    Do you have an opinion regarding the Buncombe County Democratic Headquarters? Your quotation marks in the previous comment indicate something, but, as with many of your comments, it’s hard to know your point. Aside from playing the victim, that is.

    Thumb up 4

  38. TJ says:

    Mark: my apologies if I mixed you up with someone else.

    Davyne, do you know which person answered LOWV questionairre with many responses as to how the gov’t should NOT be involved in those matters?

    Mark: I will email you on the “other side.” I will be happy to have a sit down. I am curious as to what ideas you will share. I will disclose here that I am new to the political scene, I am infinitely more interested in philosophical ideas than politics…but, I am finding I have to think philosophically about some things, so that it makes SOME kind of sense.

    You can decide if you want to meet or not. (I) am not afraid to meet new people.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  39. Gordon Smith says:

    Since this thread has gone completely off the rails, I thought I’d mention a couple of things before signing off.

    Trayvon Martin is dead.

    Trayvon Martin was unarmed.

    Trayvon Martin was shot in the chest.

    This indicates the need for an investigation. Anything short of a full law enforcement investigation is an injustice.

    None of this has anything to do with Mark Cates or, for that matter, Tim Peck.

    Thumb up 12

  40. Davyne Dial says:

    “Davyne, do you know which person answered LOWV questionairre with many responses as to how the gov’t should NOT be involved in those matters?”

    TJ I’m at a total loss as to what your are referring. Can you please elaborate?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  41. TJ says:

    “None of this has anything to do with Mark Cates or, for that matter, Tim Peck”

    Oh, yeah, there WAS a real topic, wasn’t there? ;-)

    It does kind have a familiar ring to it….but, I think Tim Peck couldn’t handle the competition. He would probably prefer a thread all to himself ;-).

    43 comments and still no real answers for Trayvon’s family. So, that’s how distraction works.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  42. TJ says:

    Okay, maybe my memory IS failing….there was a questionairre by someone which asked each of the candidates what they would do if elected for council re: jobs, education, etc. I know I didn’t imagine it, I’ll have to google it, I guess. I just remember one candidate had many responses that they felt gov’t should NOT be involved in those matters, and I questioned on SH why he wanted to run, if he felt there should be no gov’t involvement.

    Of course with limited sleep the past 4 nights is not helping my memory. I’ll search it tomorrow, I guess. I sure won’t lose sleep over THAT ;-)

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  43. TJ says:

    Okay, so I have had a restless night tonight…I don’t like unsolved puzzles. I think I have it, and, my confusion can be excused, I think.

    I believe it was Tim Peck who answered those questions, but, I’ll dig deeper tomorrow, just to be fair. (I tell people all the time that I am not one to call when it comes to needing computer savvy, I might blow it up-if my head doesn’t explode first ;-) ).

    With all the distraction on the thread and the tie-in by Gordon (it’s not about MC, or TP).

    Well, I just realized I was confusing them, which is really weird, but understandable…I think.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  44. Davyne Dial says:

    ” do you know which person answered LOWV questionairre with many responses as to how the gov’t should NOT be involved in those matters?’~ TJ

    TJ that would be in TP’s purview. I don’ think LWV has come out with anything on Trayvon, at this time.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  45. TJ says:

    Thanks, Davyne:

    I realized that TP had submited that before the list of candidates slimmed down to the finals.

    I will say publicly that I apologize to Mr. Cates.

    Sorry for the confusion…

    I still say it was understandable.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  46. TJ says:

    Wel, Mr. Cates, I just tried to send you an email, but the address was not recognized. I have saved the draft, should that be corrected.

    I take people at their word when they tell me something. You’ll have to tell me straight out if you did not mean what you said…of course, it’s April Fool’s Day, too.

    Maybe I missed the joke?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  47. Mark Cates says:

    TJ,

    I have been receiving email at that address all morning. Are you on Facebook? Just message me, if so.

    [You’ll have to tell me straight out if you did not mean what you said…]

    I am unclear about what you are referencing???

    Mark

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 4

  48. Mark Cates says:

    Gordon,

    [Aside from playing the victim, that is.]

    So now you are blaming me for be willing to point out that commenter’s at your blog are unable to treat someone with a different opinion with respect?

    That’s not playing the victim, it’s only identifying a pattern of behavior. I understand you don’t like that, but you could easily set a healthier tone for discussion if you desired.

    I’m pretty sure if I treated anyone here with the same level of disrespect you permit… I would be banned.

    Here read this thread for context on the “refinance” comment.

    http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2012/03/29/read-discuss/#comments

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 5

  49. TJ says:

    Mark,

    I have FB, but I rarely check it. I will try your email again.

    I just meant that as occurs when says I’ll call but never do.

    I don’t play that way, so I wanted to be sure you meant it.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  50. Gordon Smith says:

    Thanks, Mark. This social experiment/blog has been chugging along for nearly eight years – always a work in progress with lots of hands at the wheel. I’m sure your presence will aid in elevating the discussion to the place you’d most like to see it.

    Regarding the “refinance” comment, perhaps since you’ve felt so misunderstood here, you could plainly state your meaning?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  51. Tom Sullivan says:

    Comment threads are often lively around here, Mark, but not usually personal. As Gordon said, this thread went off the rails days ago. So play nice, you sons of a silly person, or I shall taunt you with the Comments Policy a second time.

    BTW: My “get paid” comment was a back-handed compliment to the right, an oblique reference to wingnut welfare, Morton Blackwell’s Leadership Institute, Regnery, AEI, Heritage and the other institutional support career-path conservative activists receive at the national level, while the left tends to use up its young talent and lose them to the private sector because, you know, they need to eat and repair their old cars between elections.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  52. TJ says:

    “I just meant that as occurs when says I’ll call but never do.”

    Wow! Really bad grammar.

    Okay, I meant to say “I just meant that as occurs when {someone} says”

    I am curious where this will go. I’m sure it’ll be interesting, in many ways.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  53. TJ says:

    “Comment threads are often lively around here, Mark, but not usually personal. As Gordon said, this thread went off the rails days ago.”

    It’s like deja vu’ – both times someone’s managed to hijack a thread, and take it from the political to personal, demanding (by their responsed) they get attention..to then complaining how the “others” are responding in a personal fashion.

    Bad form.

    57 comments and STILL no justice for Trayvon.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  54. Dixiegirlz says:

    Attempting to sabotage the thread from “where’s the justification for “case closed, nothing happening here….move along folks’” to Republican talking point of “see how they rush to judgement,” not only is a straw man opening shot, but as usual, we see completely through that ruse.

    Come up with something valid instead of the “party line.”

    Fact is, respect, once lost is hard to regain.

    Thumb up 5

  55. mat catastrophe says:

    I don’t think what or how much we post here will affect justice one way or the other. To think otherwise would be to fall victim to either the myth of the internet or White Savior Syndrome (apologies to any minorities lurking in the forum).

    As for me, I broke my oft-broken rule of responding to inanity with anything other than what it deserves (which I later did). Civility is often a canard which allows rampant lunacy to run around unchecked. “Don’t say anything to the naked man with the knives, he might be offended!”

    Mr. Cates, it really is a very simple thing: If you want anyone, particularly me, to treat your ideas and opinions with even a modicum of respect then you had better step up your game. I don’t feel that respect is due or warranted to people who enter into a discussion board with ill-conceived, off-topic, and convoluted nonsense designed to derail a discussion or push discredited viewpoints. We used to call that “trolling” and, congratulations, you’ve done a fabulous job of it.

    In case anyone’s forgotten, your post contained a question designed to provoke a discussion that was framed vaguely enough as to keep anyone from knowing what you were talking about, a complete non-sequitur about black on black crime, then brought up the case of the 13 year old in Kansas City, who has claimed that two black teenagers set him on fire.

    At no point in any of this did you talk about “justice” for Trayvon Martin. For you to later insist that this is what you wanted to do shows a level of disconnect with reality that is stunning in its audacity and maddening in its duplicity.

    You came in here with a set of pre-loaded right-wing talking points designed to provoke a response from people here. And unfortunately for you, you caught my attention. Since you were unable or unwilling to support your “ideas”, you instead resorted to the brilliant tactic of crying foul about the “incivility” of the debate. Funny, I always thought it was those “bleeding heart pinko commie liberals” who were always crying about civility in public discourse.

    Now, you can make the case all day long that I personally attacked you. I did not. My comments toward you have all been carefully constructed to convey my personal opinion toward you and your ideas. I have not once directly called you anything rude, hateful, or mean. If you can’t understand the distinction between those two things, then I’m sorry but you just aren’t prepared to engage me in a debate.

    Thumb up 11

  56. Diogenes says:

    Mat got it.

    “Civility is often a canard which allows rampant lunacy to run around unchecked.”

    Ditto, bipartisan. Ditto journalistic “objectivity”. Sometimes somethings are just so stupid they don’t deserve respect.

    Sometimes one has simply to reject lunacy masquerading as normal discourse.

    Blog moderators often don’t get this, as, sometimes, Presidents, editors and well-meaning clap happy do gooder readers fail to draw a line and call provocative clap-trap what it is.

    Poor Mark Cates, his feelings are hurt. For being called out for what his original post was–manipulative clap-trap!

    IMHO.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  57. Jim Barton says:

    If there’s a ride leaving from West Asheville (either Ingles Market), let me know. Gmail me at smithmillcreek

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 1

  58. Diogenes says:

    My point exactly: not every wingnut utterance deserves respect.

    http://vimeo.com/31199049

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  59. Gordon Smith says:

    My tweets from today’s event:

    Community coming together to call for justice for #Trayvon Martin. #avlnews http://t.co/qsiVG0VQ

    “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” – Rev. David Miles #Trayvon #avlnews

    Mayor Bellamy, “Racial profiling does exist…” #Trayvon #avlnews

    Mayor Bellamy pulls up the hood on her hoodie, “I don’t look like the Mayor of Asheville now do I? But it doesn’t change who I am.” #avlnews

    Jacquelyn Hallum, “The struggle continues.” #Trayvon #avlnews

    George Peery reading a list of people who have died and now serve as reminders of racial injustice. #Trayvon #avlnews

    “We know about the Stand Your Ground law, and we’re gonna stand our ground for justice.” – Ms. White #Trayvon #avlnews

    Faith leaders offerings words and prayers in support of justice. #avlnews #Trayvon

    The sudden rainstorm abruptly ended the #Trayvon event. A striking metaphor for the abrupt way his life ended.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  60. TJ says:

    Justice for Trayvon?

    The esteemed mayor stood proudly stating civil rights are not settled, and she was there to stand in solidarity with her hoodie on her head…

    Unfortunately, she sounded like a hypocrite, since we have seen her deny civil rights to a population under her jurisdiction as mayor, because it is against her beliefs. So, racial injustice is worth standing up for, but not others??

    I also could care less for her free advertising for her bid for congress. Highly inappropriate for a tribute to a fallen young man. Disrespectful…just like hijacking a thread to one’s own ends.

    Let her pay for her ads, like anyone else.

    I wonder if her God had anything to do with that wind blowing through? I bet she would think it did, if it served her agenda

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  61. TJ says:

    p.s., it was great hearing from community leaders and awesome that so many people came out to show solidarity, and to stand up and say that enough is enough.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  62. Davyne Dial says:

    “This is a sad, sad chapter in our history and evidence of a nation gone mad. And that will still be true even if Zimmerman is found out to be a dumb racist pig on a power trip and the police a bunch of drooling racists as well.”

    Well that’s YOUR anonymous opinion.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  63. Nathan West says:

    Appears instead of doing what NBC did by selectively editing to insight racial tension, ABC has enhanced video showing injury to Zimmerman…

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412#.T3nnxFY2eWc

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 3

  64. mat catastrophe says:

    Seriously. It’s spelled “incite”.

    Please, if you’re going to come here to troll, learn how to spell. I don’t really feel like completely disassembling another member of the Buncombe GOP this week.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  65. mat catastrophe says:

    Oh, wait. I’m sorry. That was uncalled for. You actually know how to spell.

    Your problem is in choosing between homophones.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  66. Nathan West says:

    Mat,
    My auto spell on my phone gets me all the time. No need to get all uppity. Didn’t the guy who shot Gabby Giffords cite grammar as one reason he decided to start shooting people?

    Don’t get carried away Mat and please stay away from guns…

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 4

  67. shadmarsh says:

    …and please stay away from guns…

    Never heard a member of the GOP say that before…

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  68. mat catastrophe says:

    Blaming your inability to discern between having “insight” (having the capacity to see a situation for what it is) and “incite” (to encourage or prompt action) on AutoCorrect incites me to believe your insight is incredibly faulty.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  69. Ascend of Asheville says:

    You don’t want me to go all Jared Loughner on your ass do you? Stay off my grammar!

    Puh-leese.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  70. mat catastrophe says:

    I think it was meant to paint me as Loughner, not him.

    I guess. I mean, it’s hard to tell what these guys are talking about.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  71. Mark Cates says:

    Gordon,
    Are you really unable to see the difference between a person feeling misunderstood and someone who identifies rude, mean and hateful comments? I think you are, but I may be mistaken.

    I have no expectation that the progressives (along with Mat) would ever give me the same space to express myself, the same degree of respect, or the same amount of understanding that you and they would give each other. If this was a blog that had a modicum of civility and open-mindedness towards those with different opinions, then maybe I would. That’s just not the case.

    Any comment I make will have the progressives (along with Mat) searching out the “evil” intent hidden subtly by carefully crafted and coded words.

    To be honest, I find many of the comments just silly. It’s hard to take them seriously. Even your desire to understand the “refinance” comment made me laugh. You are looking for the hidden meaning when there is none.

    My original comment was this:

    (If only we even had a building to “refinance”.)

    The un-coded interpretation of that comment is this:

    (If only we even had a building to “refinance”.)

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 5

  72. Gordon Smith says:

    Oh. I guess the quotation marks were just for “flourish”.

    Thanks again for being a part of the conversation.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 2

  73. Mark Cates says:

    Gordon,

    Mat says: [At no point in any of this did you talk about “justice” for Trayvon Martin. For you to later insist that this is what you wanted to do shows a level of disconnect with reality that is stunning in its audacity and maddening in its duplicity.]

    This is precisely the kind of comment I can’t take seriously. It appears that expressing a concern about rushing to judgment and with the 1000’s of black on black murders, and how we can have a reported racial incident without inflaming racial tensions, then one is automatically not interested in justice.

    What kind of person starts with the assumption that others don’t want justice? That’s such a foreign assumption for me, that I can’t take his comment seriously.

    Mat,

    [Now, you can make the case all day long…]

    I have no need to make any case. You do just fine by yourself. ; – )

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 4

  74. Mark Cates says:

    [Oh. I guess the quotation marks were just for “flourish”.]

    No. There was really a great deal of meaning in the quotes, but the evil overlords that control me are preventing me from revealing the truth.

    It’s alot like that Harry Potter movie when Dobby can’t talk badly about the Malfoy’s, but in this case it’s Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and Rush Limbaugh who command me.

    I’m sure you understand the difficulty of my predicament.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 4

  75. Tim Peck says:

    Left-wing news media outlet NBC apologizes for intentionally lying to the public to further a political agenda. Lovely.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/nbc-issues-apology-on-zimmerman-tape-screw-up/2012/04/03/gIQA8m5jtS_blog.html
    …………………..
    [submitted 4/4/2012 6:33 AM]

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 4

  76. TJ says:

    Mark:

    Still waiting for an email. Sent you a second one. Got your response that you received it, but nothing further. Got a message from David. He also has not heard back from you. I will not pursue this if truly you are not interested. I hope you are just checking your schedule or thinking of the best place to eat. Both of us are okay with Thursday, how about you?

    I promise I just want to eat and meet. No agenda other than getting to know you, and perhaps, a better understanding. Ask anyone, I don’t bite ;-)

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  77. Mark Cates says:

    TJ and David,

    Thursday, Noon Asheville Pizza on Merrimon. All are invited!

    TJ,

    [I will not pursue this if truly you are not interested. ]

    This is the kind of silliness that I have been referring to. To even make that inference is indicative of a predetermined prejudice.

    If the situation had been reversed (or had you been trying to setup lunch with anyone else), it most likely would have gone like this…

    1) It would have been just another friendly email as opposed to making a public comment.

    2) My email to you would have read… “TJ, Haven’t heard back yet, Are we on for lunch this week? Let me know. Thanks, Mark”

    3) I wouldn’t have made any inference about your motivations (Nor do I think you would have if it had been someone else.)

    But if you must know… I have been trying to setup a conference call with a client for Thursday. I was hoping for that to happen and can honestly say that if it comes through and conflicts with lunch I’ll cancel without thinking twice. But I didn’t think that would look good, so I have been trying to get my schedule more solid before making any commitments.

    In addition, I have sold my house and will close on it April 30. I will be out of town the 3 weeks before the closing, but have not found another place to live yet. I have 3 more days to do so, because I want to go to my father’s for Easter this weekend. I am feeling a bit stretched at the moment and not exactly sure how productive I will be in the next few days.

    Sure,I could have emailed as much. However, I don’t work on the assumption that people will think the worst about me. Perhaps, I need to rethink that somewhat.

    Anyway, I do need to eat and APB is close so I do look forward to seeing you and David on Thursday at Noon… on Merrimon.

    Mark

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  78. Mark Cates says:

    TJ,

    I should probably point out that it doesn’t bother me that you posted what you did. I only commented on it to make the point that there is no reason to look for the worst possible meaning… first! Or second, or even third.

    Mark

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  79. David Cohen says:

    Okay, Mark!
    I will see you there.
    I’ll be the guy with the grey hair and goatee looking naked without his sketchbook.
    I think I will recognize you from the caricature that I drew of you during the City Council race.

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  80. TJ says:

    “3) I wouldn’t have made any inference about your motivations (Nor do I think you would have if it had been someone else.)”

    ?? That wasn’t me….

    unless, I am writing in my sleep now??

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  81. TJ says:

    Mark,

    I feel like I am having to apologize a lot, for things not intended. I do not feel ANYONE owes an explanation for anything in this such matter. I even tell my friends they can simply say “no” and don’t worry about the “why.” I simply was referring to a message I received from David, and I guess for me personally, it is my style to let someone know I am working on it, or, I have just not been able to get to the matter yet (as I told someone who called me this morning, and I said I have 11 calls to return I had not yet).

    ” I hope you are just checking your schedule or thinking of the best place to eat. Both of us are okay with Thursday, how about you?”

    I am curious why you focused on the first part, and did not see the last part (or, chose to see it as an ulterior, silly motive?).

    Either way, I will be there tomorrow at noon, and I have no topic I wish to pursue. I am just interested in meeting a name on a screen(same as I am with David…although, he could bring me a cartoon book of his work – like the Calvin and Hobbs treasury – and I can say he is my “friend.” ;-) )

    I guess since I did not get ANY email after the first one saying mine came through, I just was not sure you wanted to meet or not. Not everyone is straightforward with what they say (as you have pointed out here many times). I am sorry you see that as silliness.

    I am glad to meet tomorrow and I look forward to the company. If it were later, my kids could watch a movie ;-). (No hidden message asking for a later time – just saying).

    I hope this can be a time to just get to know each other, and you can feel free to ask anything you like.

    If your client needs you, I would not expect you to have lunch. If you are feeling strained (which is understandable with all you described), I would prefer not to add to that stress. Lunch can wait, and there is always time to meet someone new that you may never want to see again ;-) ).

    I will go at noon, and, even if I just meet David, that is good enough for me…

    Hope to see you there, and I’ll treat.

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  82. TJ says:

    BTW, I forgot to mention I will be the one wearing a navy FBI cap.

    See you guys tomorrow.

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