Comments on: Supposed Democrat Heath Shuler Votes NO on Healthcare for WNC http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/ If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. — Samuel Adams Thu, 09 Feb 2012 00:41:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Tom Sullivan http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40610 Tom Sullivan Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:53:10 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40610 Et tu, <a href="http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo" rel="nofollow">David Frum</a>? <blockquote>I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds. So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.</blockquote>[h/t <a href="http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/republican-waterloo.html" rel="nofollow">Digby</a>] Et tu, David Frum?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

[h/t Digby]

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]]> By: Tom Sullivan http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40608 Tom Sullivan Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:13:50 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40608 stereoman on “industry contributions” Exactly. That's why I think it's nuts to infer much from them. stereoman on “industry contributions”

Exactly. That’s why I think it’s nuts to infer much from them.

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]]> By: Impartial Observer http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40607 Impartial Observer Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:59:05 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40607 Let me get this straight. Last week the Congressional Budget Office confirmed that the health care reform bill would be the largest deficit reducing legislation since 1993. Then, after voting NO, Shuler releases a statement saying that the CBO says the bill will not reduce the fed's spending on health care "over the long term." Somebody is mistaken or using fuzzy math. Care to guess?? Let me get this straight. Last week the Congressional Budget Office confirmed that the health care reform bill would be the largest deficit reducing legislation since 1993. Then, after voting NO, Shuler releases a statement saying that the CBO says the bill will not reduce the fed’s spending on health care “over the long term.”
Somebody is mistaken or using fuzzy math. Care to guess??

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]]> By: Davyne Dial http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40605 Davyne Dial Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:29:23 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40605 <i>"It’s got to be excruciating to sit on a fence as narrow as that one."</i> So we should be feeling empathetic for Heath's excruciatingly narrow, fence sitting??? <;-) “It’s got to be excruciating to sit on a fence as narrow as that one.”

So we should be feeling empathetic for Heath’s excruciatingly narrow, fence sitting???
<;-)

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]]> By: Gordon Smith http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40604 Gordon Smith Sun, 21 Mar 2010 20:30:43 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40604 <blockquote>"I recognize that there are strong views on both sides of the health care debate and it has spurred strong emotions throughout the nation. Tens of thousands of constituents have shared their opinions with me and I appreciate their views. My responsibility as Congressman is to filter through the emotion, misinformation and politics surrounding this issue and do what is best for Western North Carolina and our country. There is no question that our current health care system is broken and that we need to make significant reforms to improve it in an equitable, fiscally responsible and sustainable manner. In my opinion the bill as written does not meet those criteria.”</blockquote> It's got to be excruciating to sit on a fence as narrow as that one.

“I recognize that there are strong views on both sides of the health care debate and it has spurred strong emotions throughout the nation. Tens of thousands of constituents have shared their opinions with me and I appreciate their views. My responsibility as Congressman is to filter through the emotion, misinformation and politics surrounding this issue and do what is best for Western North Carolina and our country.

There is no question that our current health care system is broken and that we need to make significant reforms to improve it in an equitable, fiscally responsible and sustainable manner. In my opinion the bill as written does not meet those criteria.”

It’s got to be excruciating to sit on a fence as narrow as that one.

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]]> By: stereoman http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40603 stereoman Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:03:25 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40603 I understand that the time for registering to run against Mr. Shuler has expired, and only one person has done so - fellow by the name of Aixa Wilson. According to his bio, he doesn't even consider himself a Democrat, but didn't want to run as an independent because he didn't have time to collect the necessary signatures. So we'll have one "supposed Democrat" running against another, eh? <a href="http://wilson411nc.com/index.html" rel="nofollow">Aixa Wilson</a> On the other hand, a slew of Republicans are vying for the honor of unseating him. Like it or not, Shuler's "no" vote on the health care bill is likely to help him avoid that fate. @Tom Sullivan - your comments speak my mind to the greatest extent. One note about those "industry contributions" charts: they are extremely misleading in that they include individual contributors who happen to be employed in the particular industry. Thus you will find millions of dollars contributed to strong supporters of the public option by individuals who happen to be strong supporters of the public option but happen to be employed by an industry that loathes the very notion of a public option. I understand that the time for registering to run against Mr. Shuler has expired, and only one person has done so – fellow by the name of Aixa Wilson. According to his bio, he doesn’t even consider himself a Democrat, but didn’t want to run as an independent because he didn’t have time to collect the necessary signatures. So we’ll have one “supposed Democrat” running against another, eh?

Aixa Wilson

On the other hand, a slew of Republicans are vying for the honor of unseating him. Like it or not, Shuler’s “no” vote on the health care bill is likely to help him avoid that fate.

@Tom Sullivan – your comments speak my mind to the greatest extent. One note about those “industry contributions” charts: they are extremely misleading in that they include individual contributors who happen to be employed in the particular industry. Thus you will find millions of dollars contributed to strong supporters of the public option by individuals who happen to be strong supporters of the public option but happen to be employed by an industry that loathes the very notion of a public option.

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]]> By: Jim Reeves http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40602 Jim Reeves Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:44:20 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40602 To be enforced with all the sensitivity of the IRS collectors... To be enforced with all the sensitivity of the IRS collectors…

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]]> By: Jim Reeves http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40601 Jim Reeves Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:42:18 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40601 Why this "reform" won't become effective for years, is because it is nothing but a trojan horse tax increase, to siphon excess currency out of circulation to forestall hyperinflation caused by Bush/Obama profligate deficit spending, and delay a debt based financial collapse. What masters of marketing these folks are to present enforced subsciption to the very insurance industry progressives hate, as desirable "health care reform" to be supported against those evil Republicans who are in the pocket of the insurance industry. I certainly want my health care to be determined by politician's and bureaucrats's (and their sponsors) regulatory whims. Why this “reform” won’t become effective for years, is because it is nothing but a trojan horse tax increase, to siphon excess currency out of circulation to forestall hyperinflation caused by Bush/Obama profligate deficit spending, and delay a debt based financial collapse. What masters of marketing these folks are to present enforced subsciption to the very insurance industry progressives hate, as desirable “health care reform” to be supported against those evil Republicans who are in the pocket of the insurance industry. I certainly want my health care to be determined by politician’s and bureaucrats’s (and their sponsors) regulatory whims.

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]]> By: Tom Sullivan http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40598 Tom Sullivan Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:50:08 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40598 Slightly off-topic rant: I remember last summer seeing Shuler bristle at the suggestion that contributions could sway his vote on health care. It was that old, "You have received $XXXXX from health care..." question. The question annoyed me too, but because it is an oversimplification to suggest that you can explain any one politician's health care vote by how much money they've received from health care (or any other industry). The WaPo has a whip-count chart up today with who's voting how and how much money they've received (in aggregate over their time in Congress): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/votes/house/finalhealthcare/ Scanning down the list, it appears that party is a much better predictor than campaign money on this vote. That's not to say that money has no effect. Nate Silver has looked at that relationship last summer (with senators) and found a <a href="http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/special-interest-money-means-longer.html" rel="nofollow">definite correlation</a>: <blockquote>if a mainline Democrat has received $60,000 from insurance PACs over the past six years, his likelihood of supporting the public option is cut roughly in half from 80 percent to 40 percent.</blockquote> He cautioned:<blockquote>It's possible that we're confusing cause and effect: perhaps senators receive a lot of money from the insurance industry because they hold conservative positions on health care, rather than the other way around. </blockquote> Political ideology is a more powerful factor than money in how one approaches the issue right out of the gate in Silver's analysis. Money even depresses the generic liberal Dem's support (for the public option in this analysis), but it's not a predictor of any one person's vote. See the WaPo. Slightly off-topic rant:

I remember last summer seeing Shuler bristle at the suggestion that contributions could sway his vote on health care. It was that old, “You have received $XXXXX from health care…” question. The question annoyed me too, but because it is an oversimplification to suggest that you can explain any one politician’s health care vote by how much money they’ve received from health care (or any other industry). The WaPo has a whip-count chart up today with who’s voting how and how much money they’ve received (in aggregate over their time in Congress):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/votes/house/finalhealthcare/

Scanning down the list, it appears that party is a much better predictor than campaign money on this vote.

That’s not to say that money has no effect. Nate Silver has looked at that relationship last summer (with senators) and found a definite correlation:

if a mainline Democrat has received $60,000 from insurance PACs over the past six years, his likelihood of supporting the public option is cut roughly in half from 80 percent to 40 percent.

He cautioned:

It’s possible that we’re confusing cause and effect: perhaps senators receive a lot of money from the insurance industry because they hold conservative positions on health care, rather than the other way around.

Political ideology is a more powerful factor than money in how one approaches the issue right out of the gate in Silver’s analysis. Money even depresses the generic liberal Dem’s support (for the public option in this analysis), but it’s not a predictor of any one person’s vote. See the WaPo.

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]]> By: randallt http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40596 randallt Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:00:00 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40596 The dreams of the moderate right and the spectacle of the far right will collide in November. The house and the senate are safely in the hands of reason. But please, if Shuler votes no today, he should be challenged in a primary. At least it will send a message. I'll end up voting for him if he is the candidate because voting for a Republican would make me sick. But I'll be voting with my fingers pinching my nose. The dreams of the moderate right and the spectacle of the far right will collide in November. The house and the senate are safely in the hands of reason. But please, if Shuler votes no today, he should be challenged in a primary. At least it will send a message. I’ll end up voting for him if he is the candidate because voting for a Republican would make me sick. But I’ll be voting with my fingers pinching my nose.

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]]> By: Tom Buckner http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40595 Tom Buckner Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:55:34 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40595 @ Bobby Coggins: Funny you mention LBJ, he actually arrived in Congress as an aide when he was 22, got to know every other aide by name and got himself elected speaker of the "Little Congress," i.e. of the Congressional aides. So when he became a real Representative about seven years later he already knew the place inside out. Unlike Obama, LBJ would really punish those who didn't support his agenda. One man who worked in the Johnson White House resigned the day after the President forced him to eat some beans (I can't recall who the guy was, the press secretary maybe). I think LBJ had way more hubris in his personality than Barack Obama; from where I sit, Obama governs more like a Wall Street-approved steward assigned to rehabilitate George W. Bush's reputation, keep the Oval Office chair warm for eventual GOP replacement, and make only cosmetic changes to the status quo. By continuing the occupations in the Middle East, corporate control over media, voting machines, and the vestiges of democracy, sneaky union-busting, fossil fuel dependency, GOP ownership of the Justice Department, under-regulation of the financial industry, Bush tax cuts for the super-rich, and many other Bushist policies, he assures the next GOP president a turnkey operation. In other words, I may dislike Obama even more than you do, but for completely different reasons.

@ Bobby Coggins: Funny you mention LBJ, he actually arrived in Congress as an aide when he was 22, got to know every other aide by name and got himself elected speaker of the “Little Congress,” i.e. of the Congressional aides. So when he became a real Representative about seven years later he already knew the place inside out.

Unlike Obama, LBJ would really punish those who didn’t support his agenda. One man who worked in the Johnson White House resigned the day after the President forced him to eat some beans (I can’t recall who the guy was, the press secretary maybe).

I think LBJ had way more hubris in his personality than Barack Obama; from where I sit, Obama governs more like a Wall Street-approved steward assigned to rehabilitate George W. Bush’s reputation, keep the Oval Office chair warm for eventual GOP replacement, and make only cosmetic changes to the status quo. By continuing the occupations in the Middle East, corporate control over media, voting machines, and the vestiges of democracy, sneaky union-busting, fossil fuel dependency, GOP ownership of the Justice Department, under-regulation of the financial industry, Bush tax cuts for the super-rich, and many other Bushist policies, he assures the next GOP president a turnkey operation.

In other words, I may dislike Obama even more than you do, but for completely different reasons.

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]]> By: D. Dial http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40593 D. Dial Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:32:32 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40593 <i>"an historic vote today and heath shuler’s office is closed. =( can’t leave a message either… classic"</i>…Uptown Ruler Kinda in a "classic, let them eat cake" sort of way???? “an historic vote today and heath shuler’s office is closed. =(
can’t leave a message either…
classic”…Uptown Ruler

Kinda in a “classic, let them eat cake” sort of way????

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]]> By: Big Ivy http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40592 Big Ivy Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:27:27 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40592 Tom Buckner got it exactly right IF serious intentions existed. I've been wondering all along why Obama and the Democrats found it necessary to re-invent the wheel and why these "reforms" won't become effective until 4-5 years out. The half-hearted finance and banking reforms are equally pathetic. My disappointment is so thick it could be carried in a bucket. Tom Buckner got it exactly right IF serious intentions existed. I’ve been wondering all along why Obama and the Democrats found it necessary to re-invent the wheel and why these “reforms” won’t become effective until 4-5 years out. The half-hearted finance and banking reforms are equally pathetic. My disappointment is so thick it could be carried in a bucket.

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]]> By: uptown ruler http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40587 uptown ruler Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:32:25 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40587 an historic vote today and heath shuler's office is closed. =( can't leave a message either... classic... an historic vote today and heath shuler’s office is closed. =(

can’t leave a message either…

classic…

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]]> By: Doug Gibson http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40586 Doug Gibson Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:47:15 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40586 I just got an e-mail from OFA (dated today, Sunday, 9 am) telling people to keep calling Shuler - (202) 225-6401 - maybe they know something we don't. Or maybe we know something they don't. I just called, though, and got voicemail and a full mailbox. At any rate, it looks like Republicans will offer a motion to recommmit based on the Stupak language. I'm prepared to believe Shuler got a "pass" from leadership on this vote, but if he votes against the rule, or for the motion to recommit - well, it's Sunday, and I don't want to say how I'll feel. I just got an e-mail from OFA (dated today, Sunday, 9 am) telling people to keep calling Shuler – (202) 225-6401 – maybe they know something we don’t. Or maybe we know something they don’t. I just called, though, and got voicemail and a full mailbox.

At any rate, it looks like Republicans will offer a motion to recommmit based on the Stupak language. I’m prepared to believe Shuler got a “pass” from leadership on this vote, but if he votes against the rule, or for the motion to recommit – well, it’s Sunday, and I don’t want to say how I’ll feel.

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]]> By: Billy Bob Jack http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40585 Billy Bob Jack Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:46:06 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40585 So who will run, and win, Shuler's seat? That jackass has got to go. So who will run, and win, Shuler’s seat? That jackass has got to go.

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]]> By: Bobby Coggins http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40584 Bobby Coggins Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:07:20 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40584 @Tom: If Obama had spent more time in the US Senate to actually learn how one does things, he could learned what LBJ knew. His Civil Rights bill was very short. I, and millions of others, are very glad that his hubris is in full control. It looks like he'll give us a Republican-controlled House, and maybe (just maybe) a Republican Senate, too. Off Topic: I was at the Jackson and Macon GOP Conventions this weekend. People were there in record numbers and looking for ways to get involved in local campaigns. One local candidate told me that they have more people than they know what to do with, and are starting canvassing and phone banking parties. <a href="http://twitpic.com/19npy2" rel="nofollow">Concern about ObamaCare</a> might be the foot in the door that allows us to do things we never thought possible at the local level. The Free Market works. If we could get the government out of the way of health care, it would go a long way to solving the problem. Of course, I realize that most of the people visiting this website hate the Free Market and love the Meddlesome Bureaucrat instead. @Tom:

If Obama had spent more time in the US Senate to actually learn how one does things, he could learned what LBJ knew. His Civil Rights bill was very short.

I, and millions of others, are very glad that his hubris is in full control. It looks like he’ll give us a Republican-controlled House, and maybe (just maybe) a Republican Senate, too.

Off Topic:

I was at the Jackson and Macon GOP Conventions this weekend. People were there in record numbers and looking for ways to get involved in local campaigns. One local candidate told me that they have more people than they know what to do with, and are starting canvassing and phone banking parties.

Concern about ObamaCare might be the foot in the door that allows us to do things we never thought possible at the local level.

The Free Market works. If we could get the government out of the way of health care, it would go a long way to solving the problem. Of course, I realize that most of the people visiting this website hate the Free Market and love the Meddlesome Bureaucrat instead.

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]]> By: Tom Buckner http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40583 Tom Buckner Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:33:51 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40583 Hillarycare in essence made the same error Obamacare did. If the Clintons had backed a one-page bill allowing all Americans to buy in to Medicare with full coverage, in a full-on high speed blitz like those that gave us the PatRot Act and the Billionaire Bailouts, it might have passed. And the insurance companies fear any real public option because they "won't be able to compete," which is a tacit admission that it would be a better mousetrap. Lastly, saying that we mustn't tamper with "one sixth of the economy" doesn't make sense. It SHOULDN'T BE one sixth of the economy; it got that way through bloat and profiteering, at least in part. If the insurance companies siphoned off one half of the economy, would that mean it was three times more sacrosanct?

Hillarycare in essence made the same error Obamacare did. If the Clintons had backed a one-page bill allowing all Americans to buy in to Medicare with full coverage, in a full-on high speed blitz like those that gave us the PatRot Act and the Billionaire Bailouts, it might have passed.

And the insurance companies fear any real public option because they “won’t be able to compete,” which is a tacit admission that it would be a better mousetrap.

Lastly, saying that we mustn’t tamper with “one sixth of the economy” doesn’t make sense. It SHOULDN’T BE one sixth of the economy; it got that way through bloat and profiteering, at least in part. If the insurance companies siphoned off one half of the economy, would that mean it was three times more sacrosanct?

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]]> By: Deus Ex Machina http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40582 Deus Ex Machina Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:17:36 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40582 And, of course, the Teabaggers were <a href="http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/15601/tea-partiers-in-dc-spit-on-rep-cleaver-call-frank-ft-reps-lewis-and-carson-nr" rel="nofollow">out in full force yesterday</a>, spitting at members of Congress and calling them "niggers" and "faggots". Jesse Helms would be proud. And, of course, the Teabaggers were out in full force yesterday, spitting at members of Congress and calling them “niggers” and “faggots”. Jesse Helms would be proud.

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]]> By: Bobby Coggins http://scrutinyhooligans.us/2010/03/20/12172/comment-page-1/#comment-40581 Bobby Coggins Sun, 21 Mar 2010 07:55:15 +0000 http://scrutinyhooligans.us/?p=12172#comment-40581 I shouln't be typing when I first wake up. That should read: " I was afraid that Patsy Keever was going to do it and <b>am glad that</b> she has focused her attentions elsewhere." I don't think you people realize that this monstrous health care legislation will cost the Dems the House...and maybe the Senate, this year. I'm glad that you still haven't learned from the mistake that was HillaryCare. HillaryCare led to the 1994 Revolution. I shouln’t be typing when I first wake up.

That should read:

” I was afraid that Patsy Keever was going to do it and am glad that she has focused her attentions elsewhere.”

I don’t think you people realize that this monstrous health care legislation will cost the Dems the House…and maybe the Senate, this year. I’m glad that you still haven’t learned from the mistake that was HillaryCare. HillaryCare led to the 1994 Revolution.

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