Friday Open Thread: Invocation

There are so many religions that would have to be invited to make it fair to everyone that a moment of silence seems a lot more practical.

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Ixnay on the ayerpra.

Here’s what the Bible has to say about it:

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

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It is always important to hear Don Yelton’s opinion…

(From the MountainX.com)

Conservative activist Don Yelton was even more blunt in his condemnation, and sent out an e-mail calling on citizens to oppose the step.

“I am reminded of what some [Jewish] friends told me, they did not know how fast it could happen. Hitler,” he wrote. “We are knocking on the doors of hell right now. Please get your pastors to get awake and take a stand.”

Link http://bit.ly/8GxIny

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From Firelady’s link above:

“On November 9, 2009 a magistrate judge with the US District Court for the Middle District of NC issued a recommendation of judgment against Forsyth County as the practice violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution,” Frue wrote, noting that while Forsyth is still fighting the decision, the legal costs for a defeat would be considerable.

Is it worth the cost to Buncombe County in order to make a divisive religious point? I agree with Frue. I also don’t believe the claims of Mumpower and Yelton that this practice is non-sectarian. Because most of us were raised in a Christian milieu we barely notice the references to Christ or the trinity in these invocations but others do. I’d be curious to hear the reaction of Mump & Yelton if the following prayer were given in their presence.

All greetings, blessings and good acts are from You, my Lord.
Greetings to you, O Prophet, and the mercy and blessings of Allah.
Peace be unto us, and unto the righteous servants of Allah.
I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah.
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger.

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Didn’t the city get into trouble (and generate a protest rally by local ministers) once already after a past mayor issued a proclamation declaring an “Earth Religions Awareness Week”?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_news_99.htm

If people want to invite more firestorms like that, then invocate away and see who demands equal time. The county attorney will insist that they get it.

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I agree with your decision Gordon. It may be because I’m a Yankee where we generally treat our religion as a private matter, but I never ceased to be shocked when political party meetings, gatherings, and government meetings were opened with prayers (and usually very Christian prayers). I didn’t offend me, it was just so unexpected and unlike anything I had experienced in Maine politics.

Who’s going to send a memo to the U.S. Congress? They do the same thing.

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Potstirring over at Matt Mittan’s show – he is trying to get folks worked up to deny Cecil (and if possible Gordon) from being sworn into City Council, because the NC State Constitution says that “any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God” can’t hold elected office in NC. (Apparently, Cecil refused to profess his belief in the Almighty in an AC-T interview.)

When I called in, Matt failed to acknowledge that this provision in the State constitution was “infeasible” because the US Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional back in 1961. It’s still in there because nobody wants to waste their time or energy revising the Constitution – they just don’t enforce it.

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I just wanted to pipe in that Mittan is a tool and his show is garbage.

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Oh God(?) Cecil, no. For God’s(?) sake, no!

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From my end of this discussion, I don’t “deny the being of Almighty God,” I simply consider the question of denial or acceptance irrelevant.

That sounds like Frenchy Existentialist talk…

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Oh, and a note on journalistic accuracy. Joel Burgess labeled me “atheist” but I didn’t say that. I self-label as “post-theist,” which carries a distinct meaning in my view.

Also,it’s been amusing to see myself labeled as an “avowed atheist” in the blogosphere, which makes it sound like I’ve made an effort to be so-identified, when, in fact, I have made something of an effort to not be so-identified. In the most widely published referenced statement about my belief (The Prince of War, Brave Ulysses Books, 2007) I said in the Acknowledgments:
***
“I suppose I should also acknowledge my understanding that I will find myself labeled as Satan’s helper, instrument, vehicle and a whole lot more upon publication of this work. So, for the record, I don’t believe in supernatural beings of any stripe and I happily acknowledge that I could be wrong. It seems to me that belief in gods has caused a whole lot more problems than it has solved.

“I find myself agreeing with novelist Salman Rushdie who observed, ‘I do think that the question of origins and the question of ethics—which are the two big things which lead people to religion—are things which are not answered by religion. I don’t believe in any of the religious stories of the origin of the universe and I don’t look to priests for my moral answers.’

“There’s the rub, exactly. People turn to religion for answers to the biggest questions and are handed meaningless homilies while being enjoined to trust and obey. And, oh yes, pass the plate. The golden rule pretty well covers the highest aspirations of human interaction
and morality in my view, and that rule is decidedly secular. If we could all just do that one thing, promises of pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by would lose their appeal and origins would simply be the subject of fair-minded and ultimately unresolvable debate.”

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Sounds like if you’re an avowed-anything, Cecil, it’s Agnostic.

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Watcher, don’t see this as ego. Simply quoting the part that has been thrown at me (but in context, instead of out of context) for those who don’t care to buy or borrow a copy. I don’t represent this as being good or admirable, simply as what I have stated publicly about my beliefs.

And, Barry, yes, that seems pretty accurate. I don’t think I have enough information to offer a meaningful opinion on the subject, and the subject doesn’t interest me enough to be worth pursuing further information.

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C’mon guys. What are we going to do next, not say the pledge of allegiance at commissioner meetings since it mentions “one nation under God” or are we just going to have to say it silently by mouthing the words? Our national motto is “In God We Trust”, do you guys want to delete that too?

What separates the United States from every other nation on this planet? We are the only nation in the world that publicly recognized from its inception that our liberties don’t come from political rulers or the people. According to our Declaration of Independence, “We hold these truths self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.” So if Mr. Jefferson and the founders acknowledged the importance of the Almighty with the creation of our nation, why can’t our government meetings begin with a prayer?

Christians don’t need public prayers at the commissioners meetings because one day, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But I respectfully submit that a public prayer to our Creator before a local government meeting is consistent with our Constitution and because we need all the help we can get, there is nothing wrong with asking for the Creator’s guidance.

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“We are the only nation in the world that publicly recognized from its inception that our liberties don’t come from political rulers or the people.”

Can I quote you Nathan, the next time someone tells me that I have to bow my head to the veterans who procured my liberties with their sacrifice?

And be careful of citing Thomas Jefferson. Here’s what he really thought about the wisdom of trying to unify a diverse society under the banner of Christianity:

“Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. Let us reflect that it is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one of that thousand.”

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ZONING PROPOSITIONS?!? Now you ARE talking Hellfire!!

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The “in god we trust” line was not originally in the Pledge of Allegiance. I think it is more telling that the First Amendment establishes the freedom of religion than whether the Declaration or the Pledge references a god. I agree with Jim that it would be interesting to see what people might think of an invocation that references another god beside the Christian one.

As far as the invocation, I think a moment of silence is more respectful, but if an invocation is a must then maybe the Mayor could spin a wheel divided into sections for several different religious invocations so no one religion would dominate.

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OMG, Nathan, save that tired speech for Bob Jones U.

Also, whats the confusion you speak of? We all know basic US history and of our current wars, I believe. You’re wearing that arrogant self-righteousness garb in a most non-flattering way.

If you REALLY think Jefferson was a bible banging theocrat then you, sir, need to get to a library fast. Maybe you should take another look at Wikipedia.

You say, “The ALMIGHTY grants each of us from the time we were formed in our mother’s womb freedoms such as the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”. Can you prove this or is this just something you “feel”? Because, I find zero evidence to back up this claim. I see the genius and sacrifice of people desiring a different form of government and freedom from tyranny being realized but nowhere did a magic super-being intervene; unless you have PROOF otherwise. Do you?

Frankly, you have a desperately poor and one-dimensional understanding of the history of our country and all of the arrogance and self-righteousness that I would expect from such an ignorant person, too.

If you can show that this invisible sky thing is real and is intervening with local and national government then I say ‘yes’ we should pray to it, if that’s what it wants. But, if this thing that you say is doing soooo much can not be proven(heck, there isn’t even one speck of physical evidence of a god anywhere), then why should we be trying to communicate with it at a city council meeting?

Because you say so? Pfft. Not good enough.

Prove it exists and we’ll talk. Until then you’ve got some US history to catch up on.

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Just admit you disagree with our founders view of the world. It has nothing to do with what I feel, it is what our Declaration of Independence says that our unalienable right come from our Creator.

Few more examples, President Lincoln concludes his Gettysburg address by saying “that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain-that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom . . .” President Franklin D. Roosevelt went on national radio on the evening of D-Day, June 6, 1944 and asked all Americans to pray with him to the “Almighty God”, his prayer lasted over six minutes and a half minutes. If President Obama did that today, you guys would ridicule him as a religous zealot.

Sure, Lincoln, Jefferson, and Roosevelt weren’t perfect. Despite Jefferson’s language, he was a slave owner, under FDR during WW II Japaneese Americans were placed in prison camps without any proof of hostility to America, Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in areas controlled by Union forces and they had many other faults like us all. But we should not forget our heritage in our attempt to create a more perfect union.

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Careful about wandering over into this part of the woods, Nathan. These godless pinko bastards will get you beat down harder than Chad Nesbitt at a spelling bee.

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LOL @ MM. I take pride in being a godless pinko bastard, sir. It feels good when something you’ve worked so hard for gets recognized.

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Nathan, I’ll let the others quote the mountains of Jefferson’s quotes in which our 3rd POTUS denied god and religion, all together, even though he was a deist.

Lets just stay on your reasoning for wanting prayer in government.

You say:”We are the only nation in the world that publicly recognized from its inception that our liberties don’t come from political rulers or the people. According to our Declaration of Independence, “We hold these truths self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.””

I say: Is this real proof of a god? Just because its in the language of the DoI doesn’t mean there is or was a god. Don’t forget, in Jefferson’s time they still used leaches to heal people. Should we do that, too??

Also, you may have heard of the Constitution of the US, right. I believe the first line reads “We the people of the United States…..secure the blessings of liberty to OURSELVES”. Seems fairly clear to me.

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You say:”…there is nothing wrong with asking for the Creator’s guidance.”

I say: Who’s creator? Mine, yours or that guys? Are you OK with muslims and hindus leading the prayer? Someone asked this before but you never answered. Please do.

Also, can you show me that there is a creator and that it is in the business of providing guidance. You’ve made these claims. Please, take the time to clarify them and back em up.

I’ve shown scientific evidence that prayer does not effect the outcome of medical procedures. Can you show the opposite for council meetings?

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You say: “But again as Mr. Jefferson wrote in 1776 that we all are endowed by our Creator of certain unalienable rights.”

I say: Can you be sure that the ‘creator’ is a sentient being or a figure of speech? To my knowledge, Jefferson never, ever claimed to have spoken with or seen “teh Almighty”. Have you? What does it smell like?

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You say: ” Guess that would scare you more than our current motto “In God We Trust.””

I say: Is that what this is about? Scaring people? I’m more interested in truth and justice, frankly. There are plenty of places in the world to find theocrats and dictators. Why don’t we ‘take the high road’ and look for truth and facts, regardless of the implications?

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You say: “Just admit you disagree with our founders view of the world. It has nothing to do with what I feel, it is what our Declaration of Independence says that our unalienable right come from our Creator.”

I say: First, thats pretty insulting and very self-righteous. Why would admitting someone agrees or disagrees with another’s view of the world matter here? We’re looking for reasons to or not to pray at a council meeting.

Just because you ‘feel’ you share a sentiment with the ‘founding fathers’ is meaningless to this topic. But just for the record, I ‘feel’ Jefferson would bitch-slap you for being so infantile and arrogant. You do realize the ‘founding fathers’ were many people with many different views, some very religious others not at all. Why do you need to put them in such a small box, Nathan?

Also, why all the flag waving and faux superiority? If it doesn’t show reasoning for prayer at a council session or proof of existence of a ‘god’, I don’t know why you’d enter it into debate here.

So, I’m still not convinced that there is any reason to pray at council meetings. The only reasons/evidence you’ve given is that the term creator appears in the DoI. Surely, there is more evidence than this for this ‘creator’, as you claim, is fundamental to our entire being.

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For myself, I’d like to see the invocation spoken by someone who prays to “our creator, natural selection,” and thanks it for “bringing us all together here in this windowless chamber, decorated with a ’60′s aesthetic, shoehorned into a corner of the third floor of the Buncombe County Courthouse.”

I don’t know why, but I think that would be sublime.

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Nathan,

Thanks for visiting the blog. It’s been great hearing so many voices around here lately. Don’t mistake disagreement for a lack of acceptance. There’s not a hooligan among ‘em who’d fault you for having an opinion. But if they disagree, as you’ve probably noticed by now, they’re likely to say so. That’s democracy for you.

I’m happy to move to a moment of silence preceding meetings, so everyone can pause to offer a prayer or simply take a couple of deep breaths. Everyone’s religious and spiritual life is respected this way – equally.

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Oh, Sky Cake, why are you so delicious?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

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Nathan says: “Just surprised at the hooligans apparent lack of tolerance and willingness to accept diversity of thought.”

Nathan,

Folks are more than willing to accept your ‘diversity of thought’ or religion BUT what does that have to do with city council meetings?

NO ONE here has said “get rid of religion!”. We’ve scrutinized your understanding and reasoning on the subject.

It appears you’re content to end the subject by saying “Well, I can’t win on merit so I hide behind the status quo.

Would you have held the same attitude towards anti-slavery or suffrage.

Also, you still haven’t shown why a ‘moment of silence’ is not compatible. In reality, you’ve offered zero substance to help us to understand your “diversity of thought”.

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Alan – please refrain from copying and pasting copyrighted material in the comments. This is not only bad form, but can also result in us receiving cease and desist notices from the material’s publishers. I for one don’t want to be held liable for someone else’s irresponsibility.

Also, just a link to that article would have sufficed.

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Well, I guess my point was that if any faith group (including atheists) wanted to raise a stink, requesting the privilege of giving the invocation would be the way to go.

At the moment, based on my reading of Wikipedia, Nathan’s right on the law. But it would be hard to defend the idea that “tradition” required specifically excluding any one group or groups from full participation in a public ceremony.

And really, all I wanted was to spread the meme of Tony Clifton giving the invocation.

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