Netroots Nation Pittsburgh update
ByHealth care is front and center, but so is organizing.
Sen. Arlen Specter yesterday admitted to the assembled bloggers that the GOP had formally decided to try and destroy Obama before he even took office in January. He wasn’t betraying any confidences, he said – it was public knowledge – but so formal a decision was news to many in the crowd.
Darcy Burner at Netroots on Friday afternoon addressed the (lack of) care and feeding of politicians by progressives: “We as a movement need to use more carrots and fewer sticks.â€
Burner was referring to progressives’ quickness to punish allies when they don’t perform as hoped. As a mother of young children and a family dog, Burner declared with confidence that positive reinforcement works better than negative reinforcement.
“More Scooby snacks,†she recommended. Because politicians are prone to the same basic human dynamics as anyone else.
Burner paraphrased complaints from Washington state Democrat Rep. Jay Inslee that “I’m going to town halls, and the tea baggers are there and my friends are not.â€
Progressive politicians and even politicians who might act on occasional progressive impulses need better support from the progressive community. Someone who votes our way only 60% of the time is still helping us.
Good boy. Take a pellet.
Jane Hamsher and Chris Bowers gave a presentation on getting the Netroots involved at earlier points in the legislative process. Lobbyists know they have to engage early on if they want to steer a piece of legislation their way.
By affecting what questions are being asked at early decision points, they can determine the answers that will eventually be answered. At those points, ten lobbyists might be able to determine the final dimensions of a bill. That’s why in Washington, they’ll the pay the homeless to camp out overnight holding places in line for getting seats at key committee hearings.
By the time we typically get involved, Hamsher suggested, the questions being answered have been narrowed enough to determine an outcome – their outcome – that 10,000 of our phone calls will not change.
Bowers observed that conservatives across the country are better at activating their networks for making phone calls anyway. They routinely outcall us 20 to 1. A better approach might be to call or write, not to express opinions, but to ask questions that staffers must answer, thereby drawing attention more to the questions being asked.
Gov. Howard Dean wound up the room during the DFA-sponsored cocktail hour at Pittsburgh’s Bossa Nova restaurant. America needs a strong public option that – unlike commercial insurance – will stay with us “in sickness and in health.â€
60 Comments
August 16th, 2009 at 9:41 am
>>Burner was referring to progressives’ quickness to punish allies when they don’t perform as hoped. As a mother of young children and a family dog, Burner declared with confidence that positive reinforcement works better than negative reinforcement.<<
Well, Obama not only has failed to perform as hoped on health care, he failed to live up to his promises, repeated since 2003, to make universal health care a fact if elected. A simple Google search finds hit after hit of campaign speeches and statements in which he makes clear that universal health care was his choice — and his priority. One statement made clear–a promise really–that we’d have universal (single payer) within a year if elected.
So, I reckon he’s failed to perform. Am I wrong? And, when I learn he’s done behind closed doors deals with Big Pharma to they can keep excessive profits on prescription drugs and be immune from negotiating prices with Medicare/Medicaid, am I wrong to be disappointed?
As others have pointed out, one way of accomplishing universal health care–or at least a public option would be to allow citizens to buy into the existing Medicare/Medicaid system. Why not? Could protection of big insurance businesses be a higher priority?
Obama has failed to live up to his campaign promises. “Yes we can” has become “We’ll do the best we can.”
So, here’s my ‘positive reinforcement’: Do as promised, I’ll vote for you again. If not, not.
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August 16th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
The two-party-system is alive and kicking (our buts that is)
“Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said providing citizens with the option of government-run insurance isn’t essential to the Obama administration’s proposed overhaul of U.S. health care.”
and
“Worse still, for anyone trying to pay attention, you can’t help getting the sinking feeling this particular “debate” is rigged and, not unlike the Wall St. bailout, when it’s all said and done those who are causing the problem will remain firmly in charge.
Surely most Americans realize the elected officials making this momentous decision in Congress are simultaneously taking large sums of money from the insurance and drug companies. Do you need to be a health care specialist to understand that when the U.S. Senator who has the greatest power over any negotiated agreement, Senate Finance Committee Chair Max Baucus (D-Montana), received more than $3.9 million in campaign contributions from the insurance and drug industries in the last six years, something is terribly, terribly wrong? (Figures courtesy of the Center for Responsive Politics.)
Now it seems that President Obama is in on the game too, as it was recently revealed by the New York Times that his White House has been having secret meetings, and possibly cutting some sort of deal, with former Democrat Congressman – turned- Republican-turned-corporate exec Billy Tauzin, the head honcho at Pharma. (The same guy who negotiated his multi-million dollar salary while he was in Congress crafting the Medicare prescription drug plan – which worked out quite well for the drug companies, thank you very much.)
Such meetings are a 180 degree reversal of Mr. Obama’s campaign promises, which included not only going after the pharmaceutical industry (as opposed to cozying up to them), but also holding any health care negotiations “on C-Span” so people could see who was advocating for them and who was advocating for corporate profit.
Adding significant insult to injury, the Obama Administration has now resorted to the Bush-Cheney ruse of refusing to make public the White House visitor log – just like when his predecessors wouldn’t tell us which oil company execs were “advising” their energy policy.”
Baby-steps philosophy at it’s best! You want Change?
Single Payer Health Care: http://www.gp.org/campaigns/health/single-payer/
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August 16th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
I think Jane Hamsher has the progressive mojo on this for holding the line on the public option:
http://action.firedoglake.com/page/s/publicoption
Call progressive members of Congress and ask that they Take the Pledge to vote against any health care bill that does not include a strong public option. The point is not to get them to say they will vote for a bill with a public option (they might not see one), but will vote against any bill that doesn’t include one.
There are enough progressive Dems in the House to deny the WH a bill if they stick together. Like solidarity in a union, that gives them power if they choose to wield it.
Any better ideas?
Here’s Gov. Dean from Friday night: http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/howard-dean-on-health-care-at-netroots-nation-09/
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August 16th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
White House appears ready to drop ‘public option’
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul
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August 17th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Can it be? The reason Teabaggers are disrupting America’s town meetings is that they are outraged a strange foreign-born black man has won an election and taken over their country?
http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2009/08/11/tomo/index.html
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August 17th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Come now, Diogenes: that’s a load of crap and you know it.
Sure, there are bigots and fear-mongers on the right…just as there are on the left. But conflating honest policy objections with racism is inaccurate and insulting. And frankly, it does your own cause a great disservice.
MM
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August 17th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Michael,
Again, that means that you’re saying that these folks are shouting down congresspeople and constituents because they oppose
- regulating the worst practices of insurance companies
- giving individuals and small businesses the option to buy insurance from a menu of regulated plans
- allowing the government to offer a health insurance plan in the same exchange
- a 2.5% income tax increase on those who refuse to buy insurance
- a tax credit subsidy to buy health insurance for those who couldn’t otherwise get it
- a graduated payroll tax – up to 8% on businesses with a payroll greater than $750k – who aren’t providing insurance to their employees
- a tax credit subsidy to small businesses who do provide insurance
- a surtax – at a marginal rate of a couple percentage points – of those making more than $250,000 a year.
Really? That’s why they’re “disrupting town meetings,” as Diogenes put it? Or are they shouting because they think the government is going to take over the entire health care system, send them to reeducation camps, and kill their grandparents and kids with ingrown toenails?
No doubt there are folks inside and outside the town meetings who are pretty exercised over the minutiae of reform, as is their right. But the disruptors might as well be taking umbrage at the extinction of the North American unicorn, for all their objections have a basis in reality.
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August 17th, 2009 at 11:00 am
I agree with Michael.
Socialized health care is in flames and the efforts to smear the character of the opposition holds the matches.
We thank you.
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August 17th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Doug,
I’m not arguing policy — because frankly, I’m not able to. I’m still sorting it all out. I’m just objecting to the characterization of anyone who doesn’t support this legislation as a racist, knuckle-dragging, uncaring asshole.
MM
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August 17th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Doug,
On another post a while ago, I asked Gordon if he might be willing to engage in a Q&A type thing on healthcare in a closed thread (so we can stay on point). He’s not able to with all his other commitments — would that be something maybe you would be interested in? My thought was that we all do a whole lot of talking at one another and not actually engaging in useful dialogue.
You know I like and respect you a great deal, and you’re obviously more than able to speak for the administration on this legislation. How about it? You game?
MM
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August 17th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Michael,
Maybe. For one thing – no offense – I’m a little more interested in answering Heath Shuler’s doubts about HCR than yours. For another, it’s tough defending, or even explaining, legislation that is still so much in play. (That’s one of the reasons that HCR opponents were so key on preventing either house from passing a bill before recess.)
Do you have my e-mail? If so, why don’t you send me a few sample questions, and I’ll figure out if this is something I’m even capable of doing.
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August 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Two points:
1) In the work of saving lives, profit has no place. Humans have tried it with police, fire and rescue – all with the same tragic results as our current privately driven health care system.
2) Free Market Capitalism is a system that is just as flawed as the humans that invented it and run it. While it serves some purpose, it of itself is not a benevolent deity. To those of you who worship it as a deity: You are going to get ridiculed by thinking people. Deal with it.
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August 17th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Michael,
So, why do you think Teabaggers, Birthers, Gun-nuts, and the rest of the rowdy loudtalkers of America are flocking to meetings about health care reform–reform some 72% of us support–to disrupt proceedings? Do they really believe Obama calls for death panels? Do they fail to understand that Medicare and Medicaid are sucessful, affordable, forms of socialized health care? Do they truly fail to see that forms of socialism–public schools, interstate highways, fire & police departments, sewage, water, highway maintenance are all forms of socialism long accepted and supported in America. Are you saying that the wingnuts are too stupid to see that these talking points are all silly nonsense ginned up by Sarah, Newt, and Beck?
talk about a load of crap…
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August 17th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Diogenes:
Thanks for your response.
From what I can see, most of the folks who are really worked up are the seniors. They wonder if the level of care they are currently receiving under Medicare will necessarily be diminished given the fact that you are introducing 50,000,000+ more people into a system that is already under great stress in terms of both financial and human resources. They wonder where all the extra doctors and nurses will come from to care for all the extra people. They wonder where the money will come to pay for it. They wonder if they’ll have to wait in lines for life-saving procedures. They hear horror stories from places like Canada.
They see the government’s track record with things like the Postal Service, the VA, Amtrak, corporate bailouts, the stimulus, etc. The results in our public schools haven’t exactly been stellar, and we spend more federal dollars on education than ever before.
They’re scared, I imagine. Getting old is scary anyway — much less getting old in a world that puts less and less value on the elderly — and which seems to leave them behind in the dust of technology.
I wish the president had done a better job shoring up his support with these folks rather than trying to rush this through (remember, he wanted it passed already). The failure on his part to preemptively address their concerns was major tactical blunder. He’s left himself open to allow the fear mongers, wingnuts, and vested interests to frame the agenda, and once that happens, it’s as good as over.
Folks on the left have approached this immaturely and arrogantly. If it goes down, you’ll only have yourselves to blame, I’m afraid.
MM
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August 17th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Doug,
i appreciate the fact that you’d rather hang out with Heath Shuler. I would too. If it helps, though I drink beer. I think the Congressman is a tea-totaller if I’m not mistaken.
I don’t really have specific questions on mind. I’m not interested in playing a game of “gotcha” or anything — I just would like to have a real discussion about this with someone who knows what they are talking about. I’m one of the millions on the receiving end of a lot of hype and spin and (undoubtedly) lies. It wouldn’t be a “my facts are better than your facts” thing either, because I have no facts. Just a Q&A type thing.
I’m interested in doing it out in the open (rather than in private emails) to help others who might have questions understand it too.
Just a thought. If we could figure out something like that — maybe a public symposium or something, I think that would be cool. We could arrange something like that, couldn’t we? We know people.
MM
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August 17th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
David:
Thanks for chiming in, although I’m not sure it’s really you because you didn’t say the word “fuck” even once.
Is it your goal to see the private practice of medicine eliminated altogether? I’m not unsympathetic to that view, by the way. I see the merits in it, and I agree that there is something distasteful in attaching profit to saving lives, as you said. i also happen to think that it is immoral having so many people with no access to healthcare.
I’m really very conflicted about all this.
MM
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August 17th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Michael,
I guess I wasted my time. BTW, I am a senior so I take offense at your ludicrous suggestion that the wingnut Teabaggers distrupting town meetings are doing so because, poor things, they are scared and frightened and stupid.
Now that I think about it, I take offense at your entire statement which seems to me just a compilation of the nonsensical jibberish talking points that Palin, Gingrich, Crassley and Cable TV bloviaters have been pushing for weeks.
>> the seniors. They wonder if the level of care they are currently receiving under Medicare will necessarily be diminished given the fact that you are introducing 50,000,000+ more people into a system that is already under great stress in terms of both financial and human resources. They wonder where all the extra doctors and nurses will come from to care for all the extra people. They wonder where the money will come to pay for it. They wonder if they’ll have to wait in lines for life-saving procedures. They hear horror stories from places like Canada.<<
Some 90% of Canadians like their health care system, as you probably well know. And even if you don’t already know it, check it out–you’ll find it’s true–and then you can stop lying about Canadian health care. Or not. My guess is your mind is made up and you’ll happily continue to perpetrate the fraud, as you’ve done above, and feel righteous about doing so.
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August 17th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Wow, what a mixed bag. Do some of you, who usually sound sane, actually believe that Canadians and Europeans are unhappy with their health care? None of you have had to make an appointment to see your doctor and had to wait a few weeks or a few months to actually see the doctor? This whole mess has been so ginned up by the right wing and their corporate sponsors that even sensible people are falling prey. Normally rationale people actually buy into the propaganda. My only explanation is that some folks watch way too much TV.
On a more hopeful note, The Doctor made some sense Sunday and that keeps me hopeful despite the mixed messaging from the administration.
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August 17th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Michael,
I’m open to the idea, and like the limited discussion thread concept. Are we talking debate, though, or Q&A?
Also, though, those 50 million people are already in the system. We just don’t see them until they show up at the ER.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:06 am
Michael,
That was fucking funny. Good rip.
Seriously though, what’s the conflict? This is a 19th century debate. Take profit out of saving lives. There is just some shit that the free market isn’t the right tool for. Fuck.
We AmericansYou Republicans tried it again by privatizing FEMA in this 21st century. How did that work out? It just doesn’t fucking work.Free market is the right tool for some jobs. But its just a tool. Its not to be worshiped.
Fuck.
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August 18th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Yikes! Now I know how those hapless Democratic congressman at town hall meetings feel. I’ll do my best, though, and I appreciate y’all posting. Really, I do.
Diogenes said:
Now that I think about it, I take offense at your entire statement which seems to me just a compilation of the nonsensical jibberish talking points that Palin, Gingrich, Crassley and Cable TV bloviaters have been pushing for weeks.
Some 90% of Canadians like their health care system, as you probably well know. And even if you don’t already know it, check it out–you’ll find it’s true–and then you can stop lying about Canadian health care. Or not. My guess is your mind is made up and you’ll happily continue to perpetrate the fraud, as you’ve done above, and feel righteous about doing so.
First off, lumping all these groups together as you do is disingenuous and unfair; not everyone who isn’t for a public option is some sort of ignorant, racist conspiracy theorist — which was my original point. I know that it’s a tried and true tactic of the left to call everyone who doesn’t agree with you a racist, but I’d resist that temptation if I were you. It diminishes your credibility.
I’m sorry you feel that you wasted your time in discussing this with me. I appreciate the response and I didn’t mean to offend you. I never called anyone stupid (your words), but clearly many good people have concerns. The fact that you are so quick to dismiss their concerns and mock anyone who doesn’t agree with you is one of the reasons you are losing on this. It’s like y’all are a high-pressure car salesman demanding that the little old lady to sign on the dotted line but you won’t remove your hand from the fine print — and when she has questions, you yell at her and call her old and crazy and stupid. That’s not a good way to sell something, at least not in a democracy.
I should also say (and this applies to the other folks), I am not advocating these positions, necessarily. I’m attempting to sort through the arguments and understand the objections — and to me, many of them are legitimate (some are clearly not, like the so-called “death panels”). again, instead of actually answering the concerns, you basically call me an asshole for even restating them. It’s no wonder you are losing the high ground on this debate.
I don’t listen to Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Bill O’Reilly or any of those people. And i don’t even really think Gingrich is as good a strategist as he likes to think. And I think Sarah Palin is an idiot. So there.
At various points, you call me a liar, a perpetrator of fraud, and self-righteous. You also imply that my mind is made up on this. None of that is true. That’s why I’m even bothering with all this, so I can better understand it. Why are are you being so defensive?
As for the Canadian health care thing — all my relatives are Canadian. They do not like the system. Many of the doctors have left Canada to practice in the United States because they can’t make a living anymore. The hospitals are old and poorly equipped and understaffed. As an example, my uncle had to wait 6 months for an MRI and ended up crossing the border. In fact, I could tell you awful stories involving at least a half a dozen members of my own family (one who even died as a result of poor care). When Canadians want anything but the most basic treatment, many cross the border to get the care in the U.S. Operating rooms in Canada are closing. Medically necessary procedures are being cut to save costs. It’s a nightmare.
The Canadian health care system is not this shiny utopian model of efficiency that some on the left hold it up to be. I know from personal experience.
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 7:57 am
randallt,
I’m not arguing one way or the other. I’ve actually had a good experience with the NHS in Great Britain, and from what i understand the French system works quite well. I’m trying to piece this all together.
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Doug,
Thank you — i’m just talking a Q&A, sort of like an interview. I can’t debate this issue because I don’t know enough. I may know more than the average guy on the street, but not by much. I’m also not approaching this ideologically, and I don’t represent any group or corporate interest or party. I’m just a guy trying to understand what’s going on so I’m able to decide for myself what to think.
I’ve been attacked here for even raising the fact that other people have concerns. It’s really no wonder people are hesitant to talk about health care with others. Maybe we can change that with a civil, respectful discussion. Since you are always civil and respectful and probably one of the smartest people I know, a closed thread might make for a good forum.
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:16 am
David,
I agree with you: the free market is not the solution to everything. I do not worship at the altar of capitalism — a quick look at my checkbook will show you that. In fact, I’m intellectually uncomfortable with any economic system that is based on greed; I’d even go so far as to say that Capitalism can claim no moral Superiority over socialism.
i also agree that certain things ought not to be privatized, like FEMA or Social Security or Public Safety or Trash Collection. I’m not a libertarian. I’m not even a Republican, contrary to popular opinion. So fuck you.
MM
P.S. i was happy to learn the other day that you were a chef in a past life. It gives me even more reason to like you
P.P.S. After the election, let’s start a political consulting firm. We’d rock.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Oh, and hey David…when will Buncombe County be offering domestic partner benefits to county employees? Since you have the ear of the big guy, can you get that on the agenda? Change We Can Believe In and all that.
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Michael,
One more observation and then I will let you go.
It seems to me that you are more driven to reinforce your existing attitudes and values than considering new information or changing what you already believe. Alas, that is true of most people. You are not alone.
But, given that as a starting place, it is unlikely that, as much as you profess to want a dialog and exchange of ideas, it would be a waste of time to engage further with you in a discussion of facts and truth. You clearly are not open to change.
Conservatives are like that. So, rather than trying to teach a pig to sing….
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:41 am
For whatever it is worth: I receive government health care, and have never had a claim rejected. I can’t say the same for when I had private insurance, where even getting medication was a hassle.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:49 am
You couldn’t be more wrong, my friend. But I’ll leave you to the comfort of your preconceived notions and stereotypes.
It’s ironic how intolerant and closed-minded the left can be sometimes. Or is that just a function of your advanced years?
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:59 am
That last comment was obviously meant for Diogenes. i don’t think Shad is old enough to vote yet
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:27 am
I’ve been listening to a lot of conservative talk radio and their arguments rarely look at the big picture (surprise!) and merely take a bunch of bad experiences from other countries, roll it up with the general incompetence of big government and then hammer that point relentlessly. Their strategy of sticking with one or two points and looping them endlessly is quite effective. They’ll even throw in one or two actual facts too so their Conservative viewers/listeners can almost sound like they know what their talking about with their liberal friends.
What that means to me is that (a) Conservative party leaders don’t really care about the people, and (b) the aim is not to have better health care (because they haven’t provided any alternatives – they just demonize “the left”) but is instead designed to discredit the Democratic Party so they can regain power. They’ve been hunting for that opening, and this is a GREAT opening for them and they are executing it brilliantly.
To be clear, I’m not saying Conservatives in general don’t care about people – I’m just talking about the leaders at the top their up and coming protoges, and the talking heads on tv/radio. They have a job to do, and that job is to grow the party using the ideals they represent. And when I say “they want to regain power” I don’t mean it in the evil Gollum way. Just saying they want to be the main influence of national policy and have their hands on the gov’t checkbook once again.
There are definitely pros-and-cons to either solution (public or private), but even if the public option becomes totally viable and benefits everyone (even private health insurance companies) the Right won’t agree and will continue to fight it (again taking a handful of negatives and looping them endlessly) because IT’S NOT ABOUT THE PLAN ITSELF TO THEM. IT’S ABOUT GETTING THE POWER BACK.
And as long as they keep professing their monopoly on family values and Jesus they’ll have a large constituency to follow them around and do whatever they say – even if it doesn’t help them personally – which includes helping pad the bank accounts of large private health companies and their officers. (But that’s a discussion for another time)
Human behavior is so fascinating.
DM
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Diogenes,
Not to shatter your utopian illusions about the Canadian healthcare system with the facts or anything, I thought you might find this interesting:
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:32 am
DM writes:
Need I remind you that the Republicans are irrelevant? They control nothing. This has nothing to do with any conservative opposition, so stop with the straw man arguments: the plan is a falling under its own weight, and you only have the Democrats to blame for that.
And as for “getting the power back,” I’m glad you brought this up. I agree with you about the leadership and the entertainers on the right. Many don’t give a damn about poor sick people, and their jobs are to whip folks up in to a frenzy. But let’s be adults and recognize the Democratic Party’s real motivation behind the public option: it’s about buying a whole new block of voters and creating a permanent Democratic majority, a la FDR and LBJ. Rahm Emanuel is no fool.
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:44 am
A new poll shows that President’s National Approval Rating on Health Care falls below those who disapprove for the first time since January. Diogenes, is this why you seem so bitter?
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Gallup poll:
Ratio of the number of Canadians who favor a U.S.-style health-care system to those who believe Elvis is alive: 1:2
Source: Louis Harris & Associates (N.Y.C.)/Gallup Canada (Toronto)
http://harpers.org/index/1993/9/9
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Related topic?
Come to the Tea Partiers rally at Shulers office Saturday to see three different guys named Tim Peck.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
barry,
All that poll tells me is that Canadians are generally healthy but too bright. No surprise there – haven’t you ever watched a hockey game?
MM
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Uh, that should read “…not too bright.”
So much for that.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Hockey takes more physical prowess, stamina, talent and innate artistry than all the other so-called sports combined.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Yep, nothing describes a Canadian like “too bright”.
Actually, just about every Canadian that I’ve known personally were bright and interesting people.
Maybe that explains why so many American youths put Canadian patches on their packs when traveling around the world.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Oh for fuck’s sake, lighten up.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Tim, is that you?
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
LOL
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August 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Wait…aren’t you Canadian?
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August 18th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Ha, ha, ha. Michael–gottcha! You are a mean-spirited prick, just like I suspect. You, with your sunny smiley faces. I am NOT a senior, but you picked that up and started ad hominem attacks on me for being old and confused–just like the Republican fucktards you echo. Oh, and I never called you a pig, what I was citing was the old axiom, Never try to teach a pig to sing, it doesn’t work and annoys the pig. But, if you were annoyed, maybe…
You really ought to try to get out more.
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August 18th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Here’s some quick research about health care system satisfaction that does not rely on personal anecdote like Michael Muller’s uncle’s aunt that had to flee Canada to get treatment in the US. They couldn’t wait their turn I suppose, VIPs don’t wait–that’s only for the little people. Good for them they can afford to travel elsewhere for treatment. I’ll bet the less fortunate who got treatment a little sooner because Uncle Muller couldn’t wait for his turn were grateful Canada treats everyone EQUALLY.
http://northcoastcafe.typepad.com/north_coast_cafe/2009/08/heath-care-satisfaction-survey-.html
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August 18th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
I’m tired of arguing about lies and distortions that don’t matter to the people trafficing in them. Bush went through reasons for invading Iraq like a plate of chicken wings. None of them had much meat on them, and as soon as he’d stripped one bare, he’d toss it aside and pick up another. When he ran out, he pointed to the pile of bare bones and went, “See?”
It’s the same with the distortions and lies about health care. Citing facts gives the illusion that it’s a reasoned debate when it’s not.
Recent town hall displays — including the swastikas and death threats, explicit and implied — prove again that it’s past time that progressives got a clue and stopped bringing letter openers to gun fights.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-sullivan/do-progressives-have-what_b_261695.html
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
So, maybe I’m dense. I don’t get it. If talking, citing facts, figures, studies, polls, using logic, appealing to reason, educating, and inspiring don’t work, what do you suggest? It’s all right, what you say. Facts don’t change minds when minds are not made up of facts. The conservatives don’t want change, they especially don’t want Obama to win–anything. They don’t want to be enlightened or to do the right thing.
So, what do you suggest? Your criticism I can accept, but the lack of any suggestion of specific alternatives leaves me unimpressed. Do you have any ideas what progressives should do to try to rescue this epic effort to establish a universal health care system in this country? As Bernie Sanders said recently if Medicare or Social Security were on today’s agenda they never would get passed. What will it take? What would you have us do?
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
The first thing is to realize what the real game is – dominance. This isn’t a debating society. The GOP doesn’t want to cooperate. They don’t want to build. They are accustomed to buying or bullying others into giving them what they want – and they’ve seen it work time after time. If you know that’s the game, you have a leg up.
They have no commitment to the very lies they’re spreading. Bush went through reasons for invading Iraq like a plate of chicken wings. None of them had much meat on them, and as soon as he’d stripped one bare, he’d toss it aside and pick up another. When he ran out, he pointed to the pile of bare bones and went, “See?â€
Debunking is important. The lies need to be knocked down. But unless progressives want to make careers of playing defense, they need to start making their opponents pay a price for spreading them. Otherwise, they’ll always be swatting at lies instead of promoting their own agenda.
Progressives have to destroy the credibility of the false witnesses. Facts help, but aggressiveness helps more. The links to HuffPo Bernie and Barney are examples of progressives elegantly eviscerating opponents. They are pros.
But a prerequisite for that is a backbone. As long as they bark and we roll over, they’ll win and we’ll lose.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
So true – good column:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-sullivan/do-progressives-have-what_b_261695.html
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Tom,
I’m beginning to think you really don’t have any new ideas, just vague criticism of what’s been done so far. Can you be specific? Can you give examples of strategy or action that’s been successful and ought to be emulated?
What does this mean? “The links to HuffPo Bernie and Barney are examples of progressives elegantly eviscerating opponents.”
You eloquently chastize the left for not being down and dirty enough to be winning this push for big change, but I read nothing practical or strategical, no suggestions, no directions, no examples of what steps to take. “Be domineering” is not a strategy.
Do you have any real ideas? Do you know anyone who does?
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Diogenes-
Did you read the HuffPo column? The ‘Bernie and Barney’ links are there, showing how Barney Frank and Bernie Sanders stand up to the low tactics and hypocrisy of the right.
I think these are great examples – and the thing is, when more people, Congressman & others, get up & tell the truth & refuse to play the ‘take another step back from your principles & maybe they’ll like you’ game, the weaker the attacks will become.
Look at how the right has been winning: when there was talk of single-payer, they said oh, no. But we might support a public option. As they were killing the public option, they were saying they might support co-ops. Now some of them are saying that they will oppose even the weak-ass co-ops. By the time the White House and the Blue Dogs get done “compromising”, “negotiating”, “finding common ground”, and “seeking bi-partisanship”, we’ll wind up with a bill that eliminates Medicare and allows the insurance companies to build debtors prisons and free-market organ exchanges for the poor to settle their healthcare bills.
He’s right – throw a few elbows. They’ll stop blocking the lane to the basket.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Thanks I’ll look for those links on HuffPo.
And so, how about the March on Washington For Health Care
September 13 idea Robert Reich has proposed. Teabaggers already plan to be there on the 12th. Maybe it’s time to get rowdy and kick a little ass. Just like old times!
http://northcoastcafe.typepad.com/north_coast_cafe/2009/08/m.html
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:38 am
I refuse to get drawn into using the ‘t’ word to describe Tea Party activists. Those three guys named Tim Peck might wallup on me.
But yes, I think a march to DC on the 13th is a great idea, especially since the ‘t’ people will have been there just the day before. We can all carry signs that say, “Ha ha ha. But seriously…”
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:54 am
Ha. Here’s another Barney Frank clip – just happened. A woman at a town hall compares Obama to Hitler. Frank (a Jew) laughs at her & says “what planet do you spend most of your time on?”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/19/barney-frank-confronts-wo_n_262682.html
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August 19th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Diogenes,
A HuffPo commenter provided this link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/lawrence-odonnell-exposes_n_260177.html
It’s another good example. You can’t just debunk the lies. You have to debunk the liars. They have to pay a price for spreading them. If you don’t punish misbehavior, you’ll get more of it. That’s their own philosophy. They need to be held to it. They’ll either stop doing it or at least think twice beforehand. They respect strength and the left has to exhibit some.
If they’re sucking wind, we get breathing space. It’s not polite. It’s not sophisticated. It’s not high-minded. Sorry. Neither are they.
Thanks, Barry. Good one. Barney’s a pro.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Tom,
I guess I overestimated your insight. I’ve been an admirer of Frank, Sanders (Sanders and I go way back–even before he ran for governor) and a (too) few others for a long time.
If your only suggestion is to aggressively answer back when confronted with wingnut nonsense then I’m already ‘been there, done that.”
I, early on, forwarded Lawrence ODonnell’s MSNBC clip. Refreshing it was to see someone with a set ‘dominate’ and reject the nonsense spin being spouted.
I, by nature, act that way myself–often upsetting more mild-mannered colleagues and associates.
What I looked to you for, with your admonition to ‘be aggressive’ was for some strategy, tactic, action that goes beyond the verbal pissing matches we are mired in–even at this moment.
s
I guess I was thinking, marches, sit-in, boycotts, strikes, direct action,et al.
Talking & writing about health care reform hasn’t accomplished much. Maybe it’s time to get out of our chairs & away from our keyboards.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Barry,
you wrote:
“I refuse to get drawn into using the ‘t’ word to describe Tea Party activists”
I assume you mean ‘teabaggers.’ Would you please explain why you feel the way you do about the term?
Thanks
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Tom,
Here’s another Lawrence O’Donnell clip I thought was well done. It’s frustrating to realize that those who oppose reform and change of health care in America are not the brightest bulbs on the planet.
http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/hardball-town-hall-protester-exposed
Be sure to read the comments too.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:09 am
“I assume you mean ‘teabaggers.’ Would you please explain why you feel the way you do about the term?”
Oh – it triggers Tim Peck (#1)’s Tourettes-like pottymouth. He (and others, I guess) feel like the period during which it was OK to mock them for their incredibly stupid choice of names has run out. And I sort of agree – it isn’t like they merely chose a name whose acronym turns out to spell ‘F.A.R.T.’ – it actually evokes something REALLY dirty. So I said I would not use that term here on SH anymore. I’m doing my part to raise the level of debate.
Still holding my breath to see if he has the bags to resist calling the Democratic Party the “Democrat Party”.
Well, not really holding my breath.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Michael,
Karl Rove’s admitted his plan during the Bush years was to create a “permanent Republican majority” and completely cripple the Democrats, so claiming that sort of goal is a unique evil Democratic plot is the pot calling the kettle black. I’m not saying that it’s okay. The Dems shouldn’t do it either. I think a two party system is important. Certain things need government assistance. I don’t believe the government’s sole job is national defense and nothing else.
And the plan is not falling under it’s own weight. The Dems still haven’t put forth a plan.
Republicans aren’t irrelevant. Not to mention that when they are perceived as irrelevant they are louder than ever and can create perceived outrage better than anyone.
There are local people attending these town meetings. But they are just repeating the conservative talk show talking points (the endless loop thing) and not much else.
DM
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