http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/White_Supremacists_July_4_Tea_Parties.htm

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I think a hundred of those comment were from me.

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TL:DR

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i apologize for creating a very long post of replies and comments, but i promise to only do this once on this thread, and i will not re-visit it again.

if anyone here would like to discuss the principles of liberty further, i suggest we do so in person, which would surely reduce the potential for ad hominem attacks and general insults which profit us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

you can contact myself (bernard b carman) through Liberty Asheville which meets every Tuesday night at Natural Import Co. we’re always thinking of ways in which we might be able to advance liberty, and the education thereof, at the local level.

as a prerequisite to discussing the concepts of liberty, i strongly suggest everyone watch this non-partisan short YouTube clip entitled, “The Philosophy of Liberty”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFWr4GB6lqE

Kai — thank you for stating some facts regarding the broken system of which so many people are taking advantage, at the expense of everyone. i hope one day We the People of America understand that it is immoral to force people to be their “brothers’ keepers”.

“shadmarsh” — because of your overall attitude, you don’t seem worth replying to in this forum… so i won’t. if you would like to have a meaningful online discussion, i strongly suggest changing your tack. if you desire, you can learn to attack ideas and philosophies without directly attacking the person advancing them.

“greenasheville” — MANY supporters of the Tea Party protests HAVE NOT given Bush a “blank check” for the last 8 years. MANY of us have been active in various ways, trying to figure out the best way to maximize liberty here in Amerika, and minimize the UNLIMITED CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENT. MANY of us did do by our activism within the Libertarian Party and/or other activism groups. MANY of us did so by advancing the name of Ron Paul during the 2008 Primaries, thus doubling the NC State average of 7% to 14% here in our district.

are ALL Tea Party’ers non-partisan and/or focused on liberty? of course not! however, those of us who are organizing the Asheville Tea Party are striving to advance liberty by educating ourselves, and encouraging others to do likewise.

if it is mostly “Conservatives” who choose to attend these protests and also strive to learn more about the philosophy of liberty, then it will be those who will hopefully come around to better understand how political leaders within BOTH major parties have entirely sold out liberty in America and work against the Fascist tendencies of the GOP. if the “Liberals” choose to not do likewise, then they will continue to advance Socialism through their Democratic Party, without regard to liberty whatsoever.

“randallt” — hate? perhaps you speak of the hatred of tyranny & despotism — that’s the only hatred being expressed at the Asheville Tea Party. BTW, in case you missed out in your history classes, the American founders largely hated tyranny as well, which is why there was an American Revolution in the first place.

also BTW, it is in the name of LIBERTY that American soldiers have fought and died since the Revolutionary War, even though every war since WWII was UN-Constitutional.

i don’t know what you are speaking about with regard to your comments about libertarianism & masturbation. but since many of you seem to know so much about “tea-bagging”, i presume it’s an inside joke of sorts that i just don’t want to get!

uh… you also lost me with regard to my alleged “following the lead of Glenn Beck”. my first introduction to Glenn Beck was his mocking of Ron Paul. the next was his kissing Ron Paul’s ass on his own show weeks later. therefore, i do not trust the guy — nor really ANY media personality who is apparently merely after personal gain.

if you refer to my reaching out to the 9-12Project locals, it’s for the same reason i have been trying to reach out to the local “Conservatives” and “Liberals” for about a decade, which i hope i have explained above.

if you bothered to actually LISTEN to our messages at the AVL Tax Day Tea Party, you would have already KNOWN we are calling for the federal government to be held accountable to its limited powers, granted to it by We the People via the Constitution.

here’s my speech from April 15th. it’s pretty damn good, truthful, and entirely refutes your comment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5B_pw1EvM

you see, i believe we’re ALL Americans, and we’re ALL deceived to some degree about a great many things (certainly including myself). it is up to us as INDIVIDUALS, not political parties, to break out of the shackles of deception.

we can either choose to do so, or continue to play the “right-left” blame game until We the People do EXACTLY what the globalist tyrants want us to do — break out in major violent civil unrest so that they can entirely eliminate any sense of freedom whatsoever as they finish off their creation of a GLOBAL GOVERNMENT TYRANNY.

so yeah, if you’re on the side of tyranny, keep up your modus operandi and enjoy your barbeque!

(wow, i keep finding more “noteworthy” statements from you on which i simply MUST comment!)

to HR1207: “Clean water in most of the nation’s pipes. I could go on and on, but you just asked for one.”
– upon his asking, “If you can point to one, JUST ONE, example of government growth benefiting people in the grand scheme of history I will gladly give you credit for your argument.”

LOL! funny you should mention that with Asheville’s history of the water system debacle — something for which LOCAL government is actually RESPONSIBLE! based on your comment, we must presume you feel the federal government should preside over THIS local government issue of infrastructure as well!

PLEASE get a grip — EVERYONE! — about the proper roles of government within their own jurisdiction, as mandated by LAW!

REGARDING WAR CRIMES: something about which i’m very curious… i keep hearing a call for accountability & justice for Bush & Cheney in regards to their war crimes, which i entirely agree. however, i have yet to hear anything of the sort for this “new” administration. as Amerika advances its federal tentacles into Middle Eastern nations, will these same individuals at some point also call for such accountability & justice for Obama & Biden? i have to wonder…

Gordon — you speak of all this so called “tax relief” apparently without the understanding that because of the CONTINUED — YES, CONTINUED — irresponsible spending into levels of debt that America has never seen, the USD will soon be devalued to the point of no return. your championed “tax reliefs” will soon be rendered utterly MOOT.

please take a moment to watch the NON-PARTISAN movie IOUSA. you might also find this Hyperinflation Nation YouTube clip noteworthy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmYI_4XCbM

and if Obama and members within his administration really gave a crap about the environment, health freedom, and our economy, he wouldn’t have made snide remarks about the notion of legalizing hemp and marijuana, when an overwhelming majority of such questions flooded in from THOSE WHO PROBABLY SUPPORTED HIM took the time to ask.

you DARE suggest that the FDA has helped people??? you HAVE GOT to be kidding! yeah, let’s champion a government agency who approves POISONS on a regular basis! UN-FRAKIN-BELIEVABLE!!!

and Public Education at the FEDERAL LEVEL? sure, they’ve done a WONDERFUL job at improving the education of Americans with its “No Idiot Left Behind” legislation… NOT! again, you apparently need to learn more about the PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT within its APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF JURISDICTION.

(sorry, but my CAPS LOCK key keeps sticking! you suggested we have more humor…

Medicare & Medicaid… yeah right — government intrusion into the medical industry has been working so well over the past few decades that Amerikan-Socialists are now calling for a government monopoly over health insurance! great idea seeing how it was government involvement in health care and medicine that is largely responsible for screwing everything up to begin with!

Health Freedom — who needs it, eh? how many useful alternative health care options have been suppressed or pushed out of the country by the AMA through government force? and just look at the overall INCREASE of Amerikan health since the federal government got more involved in health care!

(sorry, but i just cannot help but address many of these issues with sarcasm — that’s a form of humor as well, no?

The Internet… oh yes, that WAS Al Gore’s invention, right? it had absolutely NOTHING to do with various private UTILITY COMPANIES at all!

Environmental Protection Agency… (cricket)

NASA… well perhaps there’s a somewhat decent answer, but i’m not really sure about the benefit in striving to discover “life” on other planets or their moons to the tune of how many millions/billions? NASA might be best left to give us cool pictures of distant galaxies, warn us of mega-meteors on a collision path with Earth (as if we can put aside our various differences long enough to do something about it), or perhaps come up with ways of eliminating our human wastes by sending it all to the Sun.

wait, speaking of the Sun, what government program is responsible for discovering a method of containing nuclear fusion to solve our various energy problems? or would that endeavor be thwarted by lobbyists of the various oil & alternative energy companies who apparently have Congress in their back pockets?

oh yeah, and speaking of the supposed wisdom of the NC legislature, why is it that with all this education stimulus money (shall we also mention the NC Lottery which was supposed to go to NC Education facilities?) teachers are being laid off while the money is spent on things like putting doors on rooms originally designed to not have them? (one example a local teacher recently shared with me in her school)

Amerikan government at ALL levels is corrupt. if you think the government modus operandi should continue on its present course, then you really should do all of us locals a HUGE favor and drop out of running for City Council!

sects of Christianity draw different conclusions from the same text because they almost universally fail to spend enough time in individual personal study to discover the truths within. it’s far easier to presume the authorities are correct about a doctrine and then go on to be deceived by them for hundreds/thousands of years.

so long as you draw your conclusions upon misunderstandings about liberty and the proper roles of government at its various levels, then you WIL NOT understand the true fundamentals of liberty and its philosophies on which America was founded. regardless, i encourage you to keep trying.

you are certainly correct about one thing: no religious or secular group has a corner on TRUTH. it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to discover various TRUTHS and to help educate one another in these TRUTHS, hopefully without relying upon insults and direct attacks in the process.

Cecil Bothwell — Gordon Smith should perhaps at this point sit out from getting into politics and listen more to his buddy, Cecil. apparently, Cecil has a better understanding of how Amerika is being sold out by Fascism, although he perhaps might not yet see the same problem with Socialism… time will tell, i guess.

thank you, Cecil, for pointing out the absurdity of the various and seemingly endless government handouts, which will most certainly be misappropriated into the hands of the Fascists & Socialists who bought and paid for this current and previous administrations.

ON “DEMOCRACY”: why is it that so many Amerikans praise “Democracy” when the term really only means “MOB RULES”?

when we speak of America as being a “Constitutional Republic”, we speak rightly, for that IS the government type which was set up in America. but i don’t think i’ve ever heard contemporary politicos use the term, “Constitutional Democracy”. i have to wonder why this is…?

are most people who triumph “Democracy” oblivious to the concept of CONSTITUTIONALLY LIMITED government? do the vast majority of Americans not understand that the Constitution LIMITS the government, not We the People?

most importantly, most Amerikans do not focus on what is MOST IMPORTANT — LIBERTY!

ON the NATIONAL TEA PARTY MOVEMENT: we Asheville Tea Party supporters — or “Tea Party’ers” — FULLY REALIZE that the movement is being largely co-opted by Neo-Cons & Theo-Cons. we are striving to set the example for the TRUE purpose of the modern day Tea Party, which is parallel to the original Tea Party — a protest against tyranny just prior to declaring American independence, through the fundamental truths of LIBERTY!

if there are not enough libertarians currently in Amerika to get involved and offset this occurrence, then we might be forced against our will to disassociate ourselves with the “Tea Party” movement.

and frankly, my perspective is that if there are not enough libertarians currently in Amerika to accomplish this, then there is probably no hope for liberty to ever thrive in America ever again.

ON the Pledge of Allegiance: Adam commented that it should read, “… One nation, under Government…”.

i personally stopped saying the Pledge of Allegiance mostly for spiritual reasons, but i won’t go into that here. since then, i also discovered it was deceptively crafted by a “Christian Socialist” (if that was actually possible) named Francis Bellamy. to discover more about this proponent of tyranny, check out this article: http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo54.html

that said, Adam’s comment exhibits a serious lack of understanding about LIBERTY — that is, our natural rights are derived by the Creator (however one defines that), NOT by any human or government of humans.

the more Amerikans strive tirelessly in their efforts to do away with this truth, the more they are embracing slavery under the rule of tyrants.

“Diogenes” — if libertarians are “whiny little babies”, then America was founded upon being such against tyrants, and therefore, we’re in pretty damn good company! the thing is, LIBERTY always survives because LIBERTY is to LIFE, while TYRANNY is to DEATH.

Doug Gibson — regarding “what other kinds of voting systems are there?”, Amerika uses Plurality Voting, which always results in a choice of TWO — that’s it, TWO CHOICES!

if Amerika would adopt Range Voting, voters would be able to vote for each candidate by rating each one of them. it is a far superior voting system than Plurality Voting, which also eliminates the Wasted Vote Syndrome (“lesser of two evils”) AND the Spoiler Effect.

for more information, Google “Range Voting”, or go to RangeVoting.org.

for your “extra points” question, although i’ve already probably covered this — especially in my speech at the Tax Day Tea Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5B_pw1EvM):

it is UN-Constitutional for the federal government to do ANYTHING outside of its LIMITED Constitutional powers.

two examples:

when it gives a private banking institution called the “Federal Reserve” (which is no more “federal” than Federal Express) powers of coining money and managing the US Treasury — a power given only to Congress (the extension of We the People) — it’s UN-Constitutional, and therefore, ILLEGAL.

when it gives the President the power to declare war — a power given only to Congress (the extension of We the People) — it’s UN-Constitutional, and therefore, ILLEGAL.

i think i already enough covered your question regarding “Democracy” vs. “Republic”, which again exemplifies the point i made that people seem to almost universally forget that the most important part of either type of government is Constitutionally LIMITED — THAT is the kind of government libertarians prefer.

well, it was somewhat fun y’all!

in liberty,

bbc
•••

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In these examples, you are correct. It is the proper role of government to protect individual rights from injury, and this would include protection against incidents of pollution and contamination caused by human action.

However, only in a constitutional republic can the protection of the right to not be harmed by pollution be protected.

A democracy cannot guarantee these protections because a system based on majority rule or mob rule, instead of an objective rule of law, can subvert those protections by simply taking another vote when the mood of the mob has shifted.

A political system where a majority can vote to violate another’s rights is immoral. That system is democracy.

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I never proposed ridding us of the democratic voting system, I simply highlighted the dangers that come along with wrongfully assuming that we live in a Democracy. There are, in fact, alternate voting systems such as tiered voting that yield much more favorable results. For that however, I suggest you consult Bernard B. Carman who can give you much more clarity on the process than I can.

Furthermore, both the examples you cited (The U.S.S.R and P.R.C.) are perfect examples to prove my point. Both have been ruled by Autocratic Dictators who masked their ill-intentions under the guise of “fair elections” or outlandishly claiming their states to be Republics. In that same light, it is principally important that all voting persons, regardless of “minority” status (whatever one determines a minority) keep a watchful and diligent eye on its governments affairs, especially if that government leans towards oppression of their rights.

Lastly, don’t get me wrong, I fully believe AND EXPECT government should do what it’s supposed to do: Only those things people cannot do for themselves. To tax someone, however, only to give to another party under a “mandate” of something as vague as “health care” is more akin to robbery. Thief’s belong in jail Mr. Gibson, not in office.

If you refuse to understand the difference between a democracy and republic, though, I suggest you either don’t ask or consult the political philosophies of any of our founding fathers or Enlightenment Philosophers. I’ll give you a head start:

“The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.” – Thomas Jefferson

“Democracy is necessarily despotism, as it establishes an executive power contrary to the general will; all being able to decide against one whose opinion may differ, the will of all is therefore not that of all: which is contradictory and opposite to liberty.” – Immanuel Kant

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Because what you call a republic as opposed to a democracy I would call a democratic republic. And our “democratic voting system” (what other kinds of voting systems are there?) is more than a “cog” – it’s the entire basis for determining whether the republic’s government has the consent of people it governs. And that giving or withholding of consent is the chief means by which the other attributes of a republic – checks and balances, voting restrictions, what have you – are defended and maintained. Take democracy out of the equation, and you won’t have a republic for long. Or you might, but it would be a sham, like the old Soviet republics or the People’s Republic of China.

Moreover, many of the expansions of government power which you seem to oppose stem from the fact that individual rights, and especially the rights of minorities, are constantly under threat from concentrations of power, whether in the government or outside of it.

Like a lot of people, I happen to think that my right to determine my own destiny kind of requires clean water, clean air, and security from catastrophic climate change (to pick a more current example). I’m not impressed when stockholders or individuals say that my right to health unfairly infringes on their right to make a profit. Similarly, there are probably a few African-Americans who regard the government as the chief protector of their right to live where they like, do the work they’re qualified to do, and marry those they love regardless of race.

If we could rely on individuals, or state and local government, to protect these rights, that’d be great. But their track record doesn’t give us much confidence, and so it is in the federal government – where scattered minorities have the greatest aggregate power – that we place our hope.

So, with all due respect, the republic vs. democracy distinction makes absolutely no sense to me. It just sounds like the reasoning of someone who isn’t particularly happy with the way his fellow citizens vote.

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Thank you for your acknowledgment. First off, let me apologize for calling you a moron. It was unnecessary and unprofessional to say the least. I’m glad you understand the value of appreciating a Constitutional approach to government but I still advise that you reassess what you know.

The problem, you see, is in the precedent that unconstitutional activities provide. Its not so much that Bush or Obama are the problem per say, it’s much more an issue of opening the door to failed policies that harm or trample the rights of many people in the years or generations after the fact. Some good examples of this are “don’t as, don’t tell” from the Clinton days that still carry harmful “closeting” policies toward homosexuals or “the patriot act” from Bush which has yet to be repealed. A similar policy mistake can be found at the onset of the Great Depression when the Hoover “New Deal” policies were amplified instead of Repealed under Roosevelt,prolonging the financial misery.

There in lies the need for strict Constitutional accountability for all, instead of selective accountability when the guy you like happens to be running the show for this particular four or eight years, Diogenes. In response to you: I do unfortunately refuse to “suck it up” while mine and everyone else’s civil liberties dry up and we are all forced into poverty through a fiat monetary system. I guess I’m just too selfish to stop volunteering huge swaths of my time in the fight for liberty to “piss and moan.” Sorry.

Mr. Gibson,

To address your question as simply as I can the differences between a Republic and a Democracy are as follows;

Republics, which is what we live in, as noted in the Pledge of Allegiance, observes first and foremost the rule of law for everyone, regardless of race, creed, sex, class, what have you. “Res” being the Latin term for ‘law’ and “Publican” being the Latin term for ‘the people’ or ‘the public’ therefore translates into a meaning for a system of government that observes equally the rights of all people (The Peoples Law). Now, since certain rights are endowed by ‘The Creator’ or, ‘Natural Law’ as some have theorized, those rights are in fact “inalienable” and as a result cannot be rightfully restricted by any other individual or governmental body. Liberties, which libertarians are obvious advocates for, ARE in fact granted to its citizens by the government. Therefore, greater liberties equal greater freedom for all, which incidentally leads to less government, inherently.

A Democracy, on the other hand, does not necessarily recognize the rights of the people in the same way a Republic does. You see, in a Democracy, as with any “ocracy” (theocracy, autocracy, etc…)the rule of law is granted to the ruling class, usually provided by a “majority vote.” This essentially means that once a party or individual has obtained a majority support for leadership, they are therefore granted the ability to make or observe laws as they please at the expense of the minority. Whereas in a Republic, you have representation and equal rights for all minority parties and, regardless of leadership, no one’s right get trampled upon. Democracy’s,inherently, usually only have one legitimate election (the first one) because once the ruler gains power he can do as he pleases. A great example of this is the democratic election of German Chancellor Adolph Hitler who, once in power, absolved the entire governmental structure and forced upon his nation a single ‘National Socialist’ party which forced its narrow agenda upon it’s citizenry, regardless of dissent.

The confusion, I believe, is that America DOES have a democratic voting system which is only a cog in the greater checks and balances wheel of our Constitutional Republic. Other restrictions (checks and balances) include, the three branches of government, age denominations for federal office, primary elections, what have you…

Make things a little clearer?

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For extra points, you can explain what it means when people say that the polity of the United States, having evolved organically over more than 200 years, is unconstitutional.

Finally, how is Gordon against the pledge of allegiance?

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uh, dude, it’s his blog.

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It should read, “One nation, under Government”…

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If we disagree about the Constitutionality of some things and that disagreement is a basis for you to dismiss everything I say, then it seems we don’t have much to talk about.

As to understanding the fundamentals – I believe I do, though it’s evident we disagree. Like sects in Christianity, we see the same text and draw different conclusions. Neither Southern Baptists nor Episcopalians have a corner on Christianity just as neither Libertarians nor Democrats have a corner on Constitutionalism.

I appreciate your participation.

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We live in a Republic.
“The messy business of democracy is on display” doesn’t really apply here and is in my opinion a fundamental reason behind a lot of the problems we are facing as a nation today.

As Benjamin Franklin said; “Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.” Until people like you, especially people like you RUNNING FOR PUBLIC OFFICE, read about and understand the fundamental principals of this country it is doomed to fail.

Again, please read the Constitution and stop wasting all of our time. Or, is it part of your platform to undo the Pledge of Allegiance as well?

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“For the record, I plan to attend the Tea Party on July 4th and I participated in numerous anti-war protests during the 8 years Bush was in office. And many other protests of various sorts as well.”

I lived in Asheville during all of W’s watch and there were no teabag protests in Asheville anytime during his terms. As I recall it, if you said anything critical about the Bush administration, the teabag nutjobs called you unpatriotic. A redneck billboard crew even went so far as to cover a privately owned anti-Bush/War billboard at the corner of Hilliard and Lexington Avenue.

Not fooled!

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no i am not in a position to offer you a job at this time, was just wondering if things were looking up for you. When the economy improves we can talk about it. Do you like landscaping ot putting up fences?

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