10 Questions For the Teabaggers
By
When last the teabaggers swung their forces into action, there was much gnashing of teeth in the comment thread. One comment was from one of our libertarian regulars, Tim Peck:
“If Democrats are under-represented at the nonpartisan Tea Party, it is not the fault of Republicans.”
When I learned that there’s another session of teabagging coming on July 4th, I read through their recommended talking points and found this:
If Democrats are under-represented at the nonpartisan Tea Party, it is not the fault of Republicans.
Tim Peck also said in the comment thread, “Socialism is unsustainable. Slavery is wrong.”
Teabagger site: “Socialism is unsustainable. Slavery is wrong.”
Safe to say that Tim Peck is one of the teabag captains?
The manager of the website is Ms. Erika Franzi, a.k.a. Jane Q. Republican, and judging from her recent posts she’s seeking to align with libertarian values, purify the Republican Party, and get her Hannity on. She seems to be a very nice, very conservative person with a very sticky political situation on her hands.
A conservative who’s been disappointed in the Republican leadership and a libertarian who’s looked at taking over the Republican Party seem to have found common cause.
Jane/Erika is a good online organizer, judging from her website and the turnout (est. between 300 and 1,800) the group had last go ’round. We’ll likely disagree over most everything, but I’d like to get a few questions answered about the particulars of the teabaggery. So, Jane and Tim, now that you’re reading this…
1) Which of Heath Shuler’s appropriations requests would you like to see cut? (Tim’s exempt from this question. He answered in the previous thread – “All of them. Theft is theft.”)
2) Is there anyone who’s produced a budget proposal based on the Teabag Principles? Can we see it?
3) If I’m hearing y’all right, you’d like to do away with entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare, and a proposed public option for health care. Do I have this right? Is there a social safety net in this philosophy?
4) You’re against giving corporations money in the form of a bailout or ‘welfare’. Does this include agribusiness and weapons manufacturers?
5) To which “endless wars” does your mission refer?
6) You’re against “confiscatory taxation”. What sort of taxation do you favor?
7) If the Republican Party weren’t trapped in chinese finger cuffs, would you be so suddenly non-partisan? Seems to me that a lot of very partisan Republican people are realizing that they’re driven that vehicle to death. Is this a party-building exercise for you? If not, what do you imagine your future in the Republican or Libertarian party to be?
Quoting Heritage Foundation and Michelle Malkin while making a case for kumbayah non-partisanship is really hard to swallow. No question here really, just appreciating the cognitive dissonance.
9) Your July 17th protest against health care is “being spearheaded” by FreedomWorks, a GOP outfit. Is this also a “non-partisan” event?
10) Do you believe that the Federal Reserve is the root cause of all of our economic problems?
And, for extra credit fun – To what do you attribute the incredible economic expansion this nation has experienced since WWII?
Last time the teabags came out, y’all asked how to create more dialogue. Well here’s your chance. Consider yourselves welcome in this salon, but please don’t be alarmed if others find the flavor of your teabags distasteful.
76 Comments
June 29th, 2009 at 7:58 am
I would like to add a further challenge to the “socialism is unsustainable” debacle — I assume that also means public schools, hospitals, medicare, medicaid, universities, police, armed forces, etc, etc, etc?
Not to say I am a socialist — far, far from it. But my point is that the far right has taken this phrase, this talking point from AM radio and used it to feed their anti-everything mentality. But when appropriately challenged it seems brutally apparent that most of these people don’t even know what the word means. Seriously. The percentage of industry that is controlled by the government is less than one quarter of one percent (Source). But that doesn’t matter to these people. To them, all socialism is is a talking point that garners some sort of traction with their illogical base. And I know this because we never heard so much as a whimper from them during the past eight years with the influx of intruding government with programs such as the Patriot Act, DHS, the War In Iraq — which conveniently gave way to crooked defense contractors, the immigration collapse, the worst subprime mortgage disaster in modern history, etc, etc, etc.
If conservatives and so called ‘libertarians’ actually came out once in a while with a sustainable public policy (not to mention a sustainable candidate), instead of randomly retreating to Topix, Craigslist, and your average internet forum for places to hide from the real world so they can tout their half-baked conspiracy theories, then perhaps I might take them a little more seriously. But they don’t, so I don’t. It’s all just Whigs and Wilderness talk for now.
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June 29th, 2009 at 9:24 am
While I appreciate the invitation to a dialog (even though the invitation was addressed to a “teabagger” which I am NOT), I am so very, very busy today with week-before-the-protest work, I likely won’t get to this until tonight.
Not stalling. Just prioritizing.
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June 29th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Okay, I couldn’t resist…
1. I would cut all appropriations requests.
2. What are Teabag Principles, Gordon? I’ve never heard of them.
3. Yes. There is not a government-provided social safety net in this philosophy.
4. Yes, it does include agribusiness and weapons manufacturers. Very much so. (By the way, have you read the Omnivore’s Dilemma?)
5. Any military engagement in which we are involved unconstitutionally which continues ad nauseum under the illegitimate “state of emergency†claim. Pretty much everything since WWII, no?
6. Constitutional taxation.
7. Not suddenly non-partisan. Only suddenly vocal. It’s been a “coming of age†exercise for me. I’m trying not to “imagine my future.â€
8. I know that Michelle Malkin is a shrill angry partisan, just like Keith Olbermann on your side, but they each say things that make sense from time to time. And I don’t think I have ever made a case for anything resembling “kumbayah†non-partisanship. It’s all difficult when mixing ideologies. But devotion to liberty transcends all, even when it is messy.
9. FreedomWorks is indeed a partisan group. We are not. Their protest is something that we can get behind because we also oppose Obama’s nationalized healthcare plan. You make the call. If you protested something we also opposed, we’d join you too!
10. Because you used the word “rootâ€, I can answer that question yes. Sure, we have other problems, such as banks being forced to issue loans to uncreditworthy borrowers, predatory lending, and irresponsible borrowing. But the root of our problems lies with the Fed. An audit would be nice. An end would be better.
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June 29th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Thanks, Erika, for your straightforward responses. I have a couple of clarifying questions.
- Is there anywhere I could have a look at a budget that illustrates the things you talk about?
- What is your definition of “constitutional taxation”?
- Have you joined any of the anti-war protests that have taken place over the last seven years? Previous to that?
Thanks again for dropping in.
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June 29th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I don’t know if there is a budget proposal that clearly illustrates what we are talking about. It would look nothing like anything Washington has seen in a very long time and it would move A LOT of people out of the public sector and back into the private sector. It would be a fundamental change in the way we think of government and its purpose. To give you an idea, take a look at this article and then try to imagine a budget that would follow.
http://snipr.com/l40ns
Your question about constitutional taxation is going to take a lot more time than I have right now. I will get back to it though.
Prior to February of this year, I never participated in a protest of ANY kind, though I have held many positions very strongly for many years. I am an at home mother with 4 children, the youngest of whom just turned 2 in May. You might say I have been a little busy for the past 11 years.
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June 29th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Re: Gordon Smith: What is your definition of Constitutional Taxation? – I can’t answer for the “tea party” stance but perhaps this article can give you some insight to what constitutional taxation is.
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June 29th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Jane: FWIW, as a card carrying lefty, who’s even to the left of most lefties, I personally think that Keith Olbermann is a huge fucking moron, and I don’t consider him or anyone else (except maybe for Rachel Maddow, whom I’d rather have a martini and talk classic movies with instead of politics) to be “on my side”. Sure, any blowhard pundit can make sense once in a while, but you know what they say about broken clocks.
This actually goes for most bloggers, too. My life has gotten so much better since I started ignoring you all.
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June 29th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Sustainable public policy. Laissez-faire.
Perhaps now we can be taken seriously?
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June 29th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Arratik: I like your response. I have personally stopped listening to most of the “conservative” talk show hosts and “political pundits” myself. It is so hard to just listen to them squabbling over “such and such is taking this stance because it is the leftist” or “well if they don’t support ___ policy then they aren’t a TRUE conservative”
All of these labels are just “red herrings” and take the debate away from the issue being discussed. Unfortunately, most sheeple just follow right along, or they just don’t care. Left or right, dem or rep (or lib), even the label of “teabagger” have dramatic effects to polarize people, but essentially serve to do nothing more than polarize the debate.
One of the most preposterous used recently is the idea that people who are not in favor of a war are inherently “against the troops”.
Another example is above. What if Tim Peck is helping to organize the Tea Party? Does that mean that the purpose of the tea party is wrong? And although the tea party movement may have some ideas in it that have been spouted by Mr. Peck, does that make those ideas wrong? Although Gordon did not specifically state this, it is very much implied.
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June 29th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Thanks for the discussion, y’all.
Brian – I just brought up the Tim Peck thing in the interest of transparency. Tim’s someone who’s been consistent and honest, so I know he won’t mind my pointing out his affiliation with the event. Pointing out that most of the people involved carry libertarian or republican views is also factual. This kind of identity-seeking in the wake of the collapse of the national Republican Party is predictable and healthy, I imagine. While I appreciate your urgency re: fulfilling President Obama’s hope of moving into a post-partisan political discussion, I think we’ve got to lay all the cards on the table to do so.
Re: taxes – Direct taxes are income taxes. Taxes provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and ensure the blessings of our liberty to ourselves and our posterity. I think promoting the general welfare brings us to things like a public option in the health care system when the current system is so clearly broken. It brings us to public education, public parks, public health, etc. These are shared interests that benefit everyone directly or indirectly.
Some would like me to feel very oppressed by a demanded contribution to society, but I feel quite grateful for most of the services my taxes fund. There are exceptions, but I don’t expect to get 100% of what I want.
I’m waiting for those who champion the private sector to offer a cheaper, better version of services now offered by the public sector. Go for it.
Next!
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June 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Not that this has anything to do with anything, really…just makes me think of Gordon’s “Chinese Finger Cuffs” remark:
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Gary Shoemaker
Date: Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Democrat Bothwell Busted.
To: The Nesbitt’s
Cc: “Timothy F. Johnson” , “dr. carl mumpower”
Where were you and Carl Mumpower when everyone thought that vice chair
candidate Tim Johnson was going down? We were there for Tim and we helped
get him elected. Why do you have that ThunderPig bullshit video about Ron
Paul supporters on your website? Do you think that we are liberals? We
know more about the Constitution, free markets, civil liberties and limited
government than you will ever know.
Gary
———————————–
Oh, and Brian: “Laissez-faire” is not public policy. So no, you shouldn’t be taken seriously.
MM
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June 29th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Have fun all you A’ville tea baggers! The last one was too much fun watching all the nut jobs. I’ll be sitting atop my mountain fortress sipping wine…
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June 29th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Gordon: Is utilizing a derogatory term like “teabagger” part of President Obama’s hope of moving into a post-partisan politican discussion?
It may be factual that several who have attended previous tea parties, but what purpose does it serve to point that out other than to polarize the subject matter? This is a classic example of a circumstantial ad hominem fallacy.
The fact is, I would think that some people who would classify themselves as ‘progressives’ may agree with one or more of the issues being protested by the ‘tea partiers’. For example, the one of the issues of the Tea Party to protest government bailouts. Our taxpayer dollars was handed to several large corporations. Is this not an issue that some with progressive views support? So why not get involved and participate?
Taxes – The constitution specifically states
“Direct taxes must be “apportioned among the several states which may be included within this Union”. [See Article I, Section 2, Clause 3 and Article 1, Section 9, Clause 4.]”
So then we must ask, what does “apportioned” mean?
To the second part of your discussion on taxes about providing for the common defense, promote the general welfare, etc… The question was “What is your definition of constitutional taxation?” So to point out what taxes provide funding for and whether those taxes are justified is subject matter for another debate.
As for your comment on cheaper, better services… If this were truly the case why does the government not offer these services in the public marketplace for pay? Why must it subsidize it’s own services? Perhaps I will answer for you, it’s because they are not truly superior services nor are they more inexpensive.
Of course in response to your “demanded contribution to society” thought. I will simply respond with a quote from Mr. Thomas Jefferson, “To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.”
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June 29th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Ten Answers for Scrutiny Hooligans
First, I support the Tea Party movement and help out where I can. But I do not speak on behalf of any Tea Party organizers or protesters. This is a grassroots movement and as such there are no central top-down organizing directives, scripts or talking-points. We make them up as we go, grassroots-style.
Second, I will respond to your questions in spite of the insults made in the course of asking them. I’m that kind of guy. One, insults are bad manners; and, two, I do not need to employ insults to advance my arguments.
1) Which of Heath Shuler’s appropriations requests would you like to see cut?
All of them. Theft is theft.
2) Is there anyone who’s produced a budget proposal based on the Teabag Principles? Can we see it?
There is no such thing as Teabag Principles. Generally speaking, the Tea Party protesters oppose greedy and unbridled growth of government, reckless escalation of taxation (in all of its forms), government bailouts and takeovers, and inflation of the money supply with fiat currency. (Recall that all of this started with the Cram Down Bill that takes money from those who have earned it and gives it to those to whom it does not belong.)
This is more than a political movement; the Tea Parties represent the beginnings of a moral revolt against the ethic of “other-ism.” That is, the ethic that claims we are our brother’s keepers. Translated, this really means is: “You have an unearned obligation to be my keeper, fully and in perpetuity, by means of involuntary servitude, enforceable by the coercive power of government.” We have seen too many budget proposals that reflect this predatory morality. A proper budget proposal would would contain expenditures in the conduct of the proper role of government, which is to protect individual rights, not violate them.
3) If I’m hearing y’all right, you’d like to do away with entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare, and a proposed public option for health care. Do I have this right? Is there a social safety net in this philosophy?
The Tea Party movement is not a philosophy. In my philosophy, which is Objectivism, there is no proper role for the government in retirement planning, health care, or any other aspect of the economy. Objectivists advocate a separation of economy and state. The only proper safety net in a free society is private charity. Those who are happy to pay taxes for such things should be equally happy, if not more so, to pay private organizations to provide safety nets. Government interference in the aspect of life squanders funds available for charity and has actually reduced the charitable impulse, which cannot be forced. Involuntary charity is an oxymoron.
4) You’re against giving corporations money in the form of a bailout or ‘welfare’. Does this include agribusiness and weapons manufacturers?
I am personally opposed to bailouts, no matter the recipient. I advocate a free market where failing businesses fail and successful businesses succeed and in any case the government has no place in the dynamic. This concept has been subverted by the “brother’s keeper” ethic that demands that failing businesses succeed by virtue of expropriated taxes. It is not the proper role of government to pick winners and losers in the economy. That is the proper role of the free market, not coercive government.
5) To which “endless wars†does your mission refer?
So long as the empirical ambition of meddling in the domestic affairs of other countries continues, so will their concomitant wars, conflicts and police actions. This makes them endless. I would like to see an end to all non-defensive wars. That would be just about all of them.
I was glad to see Claire Hanrahan and the Veteran’s for Peace group join us at the last Tea Party protest. I hope to see them at the next one.
6) You’re against “confiscatory taxationâ€. What sort of taxation do you favor?
I notice that you put the term confiscatory taxation in quotation marks. I assume you mean by that to say, “You’re against what you call confiscatory taxation.” Yes, I am against confiscatory taxation. I advocate voluntary taxation. However, we are so far from simple and direct payment for services that this is inconceivable for most. On the way to that ideal, the best alternative is to begin reducing the size of government and lowering and eliminating certain taxes, starting with the personal income tax. I do not favor a sales tax because it’s a tax. But I can support the Fair Tax in so far as it eliminates the IRS.
7) If the Republican Party weren’t trapped in chinese finger cuffs, would you be so suddenly non-partisan? Seems to me that a lot of very partisan Republican people are realizing that they’re driven that vehicle to death. Is this a party-building exercise for you? If not, what do you imagine your future in the Republican or Libertarian party to be?
I am an unaffiliated nonpartisan libertarian. My political principles transcend party politics. If and when I see a candidate or elected official who holds the promise of advancing my values, I will support them, regardless of their party affiliation.
The attempt here is to smear the good names and characters of Tea Party protesters. Throwing in the names of Heritage Foundation and Michelle Malkin, who I presume you do not like, along-side the names of Tea Party participants is a technique employed to imply that your readers should also not like Tea Party participants either.
As for myself, I am always happy to hear about anyone who agrees with me. It is they who should be quoting me.
No answer here really.
9) Your July 17th protest against health care is “being spearheaded†by FreedomWorks, a GOP outfit. Is this also a “non-partisan†event?
I don’t know anything about FreedomWorks. Nor do I know anything about a July 17th protest against health care. I participated in a demonstration at WLOS to protest the unethical choice that ABC news made in turning over a private media corporation to the federal government for an unadulterated political infomercial. If FreedomWorks agrees with me about that, I am happy to hear it.
10) Do you believe that the Federal Reserve is the root cause of all of our economic problems?
The Federal Reserve is not the root cause of all of our economic problems. They are, however, quite central to the constellation of causes, which includes all forms of government intervention that subvert the operation of a free market.
In the case of the housing crisis, The Federal Reserve in conjunction with HUD and various legislative initiatives, such as the CRA, work together in creating mischief. Economist Thomas Sowell has fully documented the causes and processes of the current crisis in the housing sector in his new book “The Housing Boom and Bust.” http://snipr.com/l4jpx
The general economic meltdown is best explained by Austrian economist and author Thomas Woods in his new book “Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse” http://snipr.com/l4lto
Regarding the Federal Reserve, the video “Hyper-Inflation Nation” is a decent primer. http://inflation.us/videos.html
I would also recommend the many sources I provide on my weblog dealing with this topic.
In conclusion, I must say that you have done a good job of pitting your weblog against the grassroots nonpartisan Tea Party protesters in the typical tribalistic “us-versus-them” “in-group/out-group” fashion. But I’ll have none of it. I believe that our country is going rapidly in the wrong direction and you should too. This is not an 8-year phenomenon, nor is it a partisan phenomenon. With the growth of government comes necessarily a concurrent loss of liberty. They are mutually exclusive. I stand for liberty. Not just mine, but thine as well.
I invite you and all of your readers to join us at the next Asheville Tea Party to be held on Independence Day near city hall.
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June 29th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
imperial
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June 29th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Mr. Muller,
Perhaps you should educate yourself:
Perhaps it is you who should not be taken seriously.
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June 29th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
my thoughts upon reading this drivel:
i find it telling that the “progressives” including Gordon Smith, who is running for a council position, enjoy calling people who oppose their political philosophies sexually derogatory names like “Teabaggers”.
would you all have been calling the American Colonists such a thing at the Boston Tea Party? i don’t think so… unless you enjoy being tarred & feathered!
i generally expect such childishness from people in general, but i did not expect it from someone running for council. and Gordon, you have the nerve to address us in such a way and expect it to be some kind of attempt at increasing dialog??? talk about “distasteful”! oh yeah, let’s start out a thoughtful and hopefully intelligent discussion by insulting those whom you are inviting — great political savvy you’re advancing there, Gordon!
and what is the obsession with so much political party chatter? i realize it’s not in vogue to simply speak up for LIBERTY itself, but come on people, try thinking out of the box just a little bit once in a while.
and why is it that it appears as though barely any “progressives” seem to understand a little thing called JURISDICTION? when someone complains about the rise of Amerikan Socialism, the pro-Socialists seem to often associate LOCAL government services with the complaint. does it not occur to these folks that we have different government levels for different government jurisdictions?
how many Tea Party’ers are against LOCAL government services like police & fire? heck, how many are against public education at the State level?
Gordon, apparently you and many of your “progressive” friends are entirely missing the point: Tea Party’ers are AGAINST UNLIMITED CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENT! can you all apparent anti-libertarians repeat that until you get it? i cannot fathom what is so difficult about getting this!
one ignorant smart ass responded to my offering them an Independence Day Tea Party flier at the Tourist game last Thursday by saying something like, “I believe in paying taxes,” to which i replied, “We do too!” the difference is we believe in paying LEGAL & Constitutional taxes, which boils down to paying for government services which are within the LEGAL powers granted to the federal government by We the People.
so therefore, with regards to federal government budget issues, the answer is somewhat simple: cut the federal government back to its Constitutional limits, and allow the States & Local governments to govern within their own jurisdiction as well.
Gordon, if you and other local “progressives” would like to seriously open up better dialog in regards to these various issues, how about start by dropping the name calling and let’s figure out a civilized method and format in which to do so… sound like a plan?
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June 29th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Hi kids, I’m out in Oklahoma visiting my Mom and Brother and family and laying a wreath on my dad’s grave. He served in WWII. Thought I would check in before heading to the lake.
I am a Vietnam era veteran. The only thing that pisses me off about Teabagging the 4th of July is that you people are showing me and my fellow veterans a whole bunch of disrespect. The one day the nation comes together, you extremists work to split it apart. Shame, shame, shame. Why don’t you go spit on some graves at your local vet cemetery on the way to your little rally? You couldn’t wait till the 5th?
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
I’m getting the idea you don’t like being called teabaggers. Maybe fewer teabags at the next rally will cure that. But for the sake of discontinuing the “you’re so mean!” stuff, I’ll refer to your group as Tea People. Is this acceptable? Please let me know when I’ve hit on a term that suits you.
Political parties are vehicles to achieve political ends. I understand that the Tea People are supposedly rejecting party affiliations, names like Jane Q Republican notwithstanding. I’m not rejecting party affiliation. I’m a Democrat. The party is certainly imperfect, but it can be an effective vehicle to advance progressive principles.
Agreeing on a point or two certainly is nice. It doesn’t mean I would come out to the rally even if I were in town. I agree on a couple of things with a number of people, but if I disagree with their raison d’etre I won’t be joining the movement. I’m sure you understand.
Lastly – at what point in its development do you suppose the Tea People will get a sense of humor?
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
“Lastly – at what point in its development do you suppose the Tea People will get a sense of humor?”
i cannot speak for all Tea Party’ers (better name than “Tea People”, IMO), but i already have one… if i didn’t, i’d go nuts with the way Amerikans continue to put tyrants like Bush & Obama into office!
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
and for the record the “teabaggers” first applied that appellation to themselves…it was only after it become known to them that it has another meaning did they begin to reject it (that they were completely unaware of its other meaning should probably be interpreted as a sign).
Honestly one of the funniest things I have seen in a long time was all the suddenly fiscally conservative conservatives with tea bags stuffed in their bonnets proclaiming to the news cameras that they were “teabaggin’” …so for that alone I thank you, deeply and sincerely.
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
I fail to see how an expression of political feedoms, speech, assembly, redress of grievences, et al. on July 4 can be seen as disrespectful of Vietnam Veterans. What exactly is the point of having our First Amendment rights if we cannot exercise them. Randalit, you have some esplanin to do.
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
“I am a Vietnam era veteran. The only thing that pisses me off about Teabagging the 4th of July is that you people are showing me and my fellow veterans a whole bunch of disrespect. The one day the nation comes together, you extremists work to split it apart.”
dear randallt, one of our returning speakers at our Independence Day Tea Party is Gary Shoemaker. Gary is also a Vietnam Veteran, and he surely doesn’t agree with you.
America, as a country which is SUPPOSED to exemplify LIBERTY, is being destroyed slowly over time. the process is very slow, and no particular political party is ultimately responsible for its destruction — We the People are.
the notion of protesting on Independence Day is EXTREMELY appropriate — it is a reminder of why we are a country of relatively free people. however, with every year and regardless of which party is in control of Congress, those freedoms continue to dwindle.
the idea behind the GOOD Tea Parties is NOT to continue dividing Americans into “US & THEM”. i say “GOOD Tea Parties” because i realize not all of them are remaining focused on LIBERTY, but are falling into the agendas antagonists like Rush Limbaugh & Keith Olbermann advance — make no mistake, these media celebrities are enemies of liberty and only concerned about their personal gain.
our Asheville Tea Party organizer Erika Franzi, along with others helping her, have been striving to keep the focus on LIBERTY which is the ONLY principle which has the potential to again unite Americans.
i hope you will actually listen to the speeches which have been given at our Tax Day Tea Party & our upcoming Independence Day Tea Party before you adopt a prejudice position about our message, for our message IS a message of LIBERTY.
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
nice job of generalizing “shadmarsh”!
no, not ALL Tea Party’ers adopted the idea someone had to send tea bags to DC, or wear them, etc.
regardless, it is apparently only the perverse and/or mentally sick people who would rather choose to relate the concept of Tea Parties to something other than the Boston Tea Party which is an historic event.
i realize the public education system generally sucks — which no, doesn’t mean i’m necessarily opposed to a State run public education system — but geeze folks… you can even read about American history on the internet, so give the porn sites a break now and again!
(OK Gordon, you wondered about us having any sense of humor!
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Caps lock key stuck in the on position?
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June 29th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Thank you.
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June 29th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Gordon,
I believe they want to be called “Tea Party’ers”, bernard b carman been using this term like 3 times in his post …. let’s be nice and use it ….
as to the non-partisan issue … well you and most know I am an active member of the Green Party and oddly find myself agreeing with some of what is been proposed by the conservative movement, smaller federal government and more autonomy for states, audit of the Fed’s, tax reform, …..
as to the safety net issue …. hmmmm I am all for helping those in need but when people take advantage of a system that gives them everything they need to live without requiring them to make an effort to help themselves you lose me. As most Americans I work 60+ hours a week to survive and I see people sitting on their asses because they live off my taxes and it’s starting to piss me off.
In Germany we have a very progressive welfare system but it rewards those that make an effort to get back on their feet, I do not see this here in the States.
Taxation does not need to be complicated, no taxes on essentials, high taxes on luxury items, everyone wins.
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June 29th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Sorry, but this is utter bullshit.
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June 29th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Sorry, but this is utter bullshit.
shadmarsh,
why are you always so hostile? Are you claiming that there are not people who are taking advantage of the so called safety net?
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June 29th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
I’m not hostile, I just know bullshit when I read it.
As for people taking “advantage”of the safety net, perhaps you can join up with the good Doctor Carl and form a welfare patrol to hunt down all those welfare queens tooling around in their caddies. Now that would be “proactive” wouldn’t it? Or would you rather just blame the victim seeing as you spend 60+ hours a week doing godknowswhat…
Do you even know what the “welfare” benefits in this state are? I doubt it. Do you know how much money corporations steal each year through tax fraud, loop holes and passing off environmental hazards onto the public?
This idea that you take away all means of competitive balance, opportunity, and education from the underclass and then blame them for not being competitive is not only idiotic, but an absolute insult to the millions of working poor in this country.
So excuse me if I come off as “hostile” but if you could take five minutes to remove your head from your sanctimonious ass you might see that I have a point…and I hope this doesn’t mean I lost your vote.
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June 29th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Shad,
I know personally of people that milk the system, it’s a fact that the USA system of welfare has created a dependency class.
second, no i will not join the Doc. seeing as I spend 60+ hours a week doing godknowswhat… (I own two businesses and hold a job as an assistant manager at a book store)
Personally i have never received welfare benefits so no i am sure i do not know all of them but i have a good idea of what they are, from food stamps to heating assistant etc.
And enough with the “I am a victim of the system” crap already,(referring here to “you take away all means of competitive balance, opportunity, and education from the underclass and then blame them for not being competitive”).
Do you have any idea what my background is? No you don’t, let me give you just small taste. In Germany children inherit their parents debts. My parents left us with the equivalent of 1 MILLION Dollars of debt.
I held two jobs while still in high school to support myself.
I came literally with nothing in my pockets to the States after a 3 1/2 year tour of service in Israel and what I have I got because I get up every day and go to work, you might like to try that for a change.
And no you have not lost my vote for I am not in Asheville and therefor cannot vote. However would I still live in your beautiful town I would certainly vote for you we need more Tigers roaming freely. Have you thought about extending that to include other big cats?
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
I didn’t ask about your personal history because I really don’t care. I find your view of the world, as you have expressed it here in your numerous rails against the poor and how they piss you off with their laziness, to be skewed beyond repair and based in a reality that is known only to you, The Stompers, Libertarians, and various other tools.
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Nothing like Tea Parties to get the comments thread rocking!
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
If the “tea partiers” had not given Bush a blank check for 8 years then I wouldn’t refer to them as “nut jobs”! Where were you nut jobs for the pasty 8 years? Hiking the A-T?
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Shad,
you win I hate the poor, oh yes, that’s it.
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
So you admit you have no idea what the benefits available in this state are, but yet you are sure they are being abused.
How exactly did you get into this country if you came here with absolutely nothing? That sounds a bit spurious to me.
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Wowzers, after 30-some comments the percentage of industry that is controlled by the government is still less than one quarter of one percent.
Come to Asheville, Kai. I’ll take you on a guided tour of the outer ring of downtown at North Ann St. I work there as a Crisis Counselor for Homeward Bound. Come and volunteer for just one afternoon shift. By the end of the day we’ll then revisit your theories on socioeconomic stratification.
Ben, sorry, but the GOP and to the lesser extent libertarians surrendered the laissez-faire argument once they started actively lobbying for the Moral Majority movement during the 1980′s.
And Bernard, you’re right. Keith Olbermann is by in large full of it, but for a different reason than you might suspect. I’ve never once seen him debate anyone from his panel ever.
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Shad,
I wish you would read my replies a bit more careful
1. abuse in the welfare system is well documented, go google it.
2. I know of woman that have extra children so that they can qualify for more handouts, I know of workers that are not unemployed and yet receive unemployment payments, etc.
You live in a wired world if you believe that people are not milking the system.
3. I said I came with literally nothing, translation: very little. The travel expenses were paid for by the organization I worked for for 3 1/2 years. (All my needs were taken care off, I just did not received salary)
BTW. I am among the working poor likely to loose everything if this recession does not improve soon, but unlike others you will not see me asking for a handout from the government; I will do what I have done already numerous times in my life, get off my ass and start over.
So how is the job hunt going for you?
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Mr. Carman,
Thanks for your reply. I disagree with most everything the far right stands for. I see libertarian thinking as political masturbation for masturbation’s sake. I consider the tea party movement as a far right exercise in division, hate and extremism. Why in the world would I want to expose myself to that kind of hatred when I could be at a barbeque?
You don’t like Rush but you follow the lead of Glenn Beck? Huh? And why all the Keith bashing around here? He was the only major news personality to hold the war criminals from the last administration accountable year after year. Where was all that tea bag rage when we were killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in a made for profit war? Sorry, I’m just not buying your movement’s outrage. And I don’t care if you’ve secured a vet to help spread your hate for my beloved country. You dishonor me and my father by your actions.
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June 29th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Are you offering me a job or are you coming on to me?
You never addressed any of the points I made either, and I never said there isn’t abuse in the system. There is abuse in any system, I just don’t believe in collective punishment.
I am currently looking for a job, yes (does this mean that because I am poor and my family receives food stamps that I am somehow beholden to you?) If you find the fact that I am currently unemployed to somehow be a mark against my character then I really have nothing to say to you…Well I do, but I am almost at my limit of swears for the day and I always like to have a few left in the jar in case something comes up.
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June 29th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Heads up, everyone. You can use the “Like – Dislike” buttons to rate folks up or down.
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June 29th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Why do I suddenly have an image of folks scrolling up and down and clicking like crazy?
“Take that! and that! and that! Ha ha!”
It’s like that family therapy scene from the Simpsons where everybody is shocking each other.
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June 29th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Gordon,
Please stop wasting everyones time and read the Constitution already. How on earth can you argue with people who simply want to see the rule of law, which American’s of multiple generations fought and died for, observed and appreciated?
I know you don’t like republicans, I used to not like them either but my gosh man, get over yourself!
Careful with the name-calling by the way. Heaven forbid one of the T.E.A. Party speakers tell the 2000+ crowd that you called them all “tea-baggers.”
…might cost you some votes
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June 29th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
For the record, I plan to attend the Tea Party on July 4th and I participated in numerous anti-war protests during the 8 years Bush was in office. And many other protests of various sorts as well.
It’s important to me that our federal government follows the Constitution. It was important to me when Bush sent our country to war, and it’s still important now.
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June 29th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Follow the Constitution
Really? That’s what tea partiers are really about? Wow, who knew?
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June 29th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Fast Fact: The Constitution is suddenly relevant again.
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June 29th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Randallt,
The T.E.A. Parties you see currently ARE in fact an offspring of a movement begun under the Bush Administration. On Dec. 16, 2007, The first of all these T.E.A. Parties, one which helped raise some 10 million dollars for Constitutional Presidential Candidate Ron Paul, took place at the same site as the original Tea Party some 200 years prior.
I’m sorry you do not agree with the concept of free markets or capitalism or constitutionally declared wars or letting people keep the money they earn or treating people like adults and letting them make their own decisions without the government making those for them or a monetary system backed by gold, a universally valuable commodity, instead of paper or elected officials having to live under the laws they create or the concept of sovereignty but those of us who do incidentally have a broad sense of history and a moderate concept of economics care about things like the Constitution.
If you want to continue living in this fantasy-world of unbridled government intrusion please do, but do it without me. If you can point to one, JUST ONE, example of government growth benefiting people in the grand scheme of history I will gladly give you credit for your argument. Until then, I suggest researching any number of quotes by our founding fathers and withholding your astonishment at how much more relevant they are today than anything any current leftist has to say.
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June 29th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
If I’m reading you right, there’s a belief among the Tea People that since the advent of the Obama administration the entire US government has been taxing people unconstitutionally. The Democratic and Republican majorities have conspired with the Supreme Court and multinational corporations, and President Obama has tipped the scales into a full blown constitutional crisis?
It’s an interesting phenomenon, these parties, and I imagine it’ll get the rest of us on our toes.
We have the opportunity as a nation to form a more perfect union where citizens who get sick can get help, where we forge a new energy future that will make us wealthier and healthier, where we decide as a nation that a healthy planet is kind of important, where we prioritize education.
I pay taxes too. Personal and business.
This is what suddenly shocked the Tea People into action:
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act “specifies that 37% of the package is to be devoted to tax relief equaling $288 billion and $144 billion or 18% is allocated to state and local fiscal relief (more than 90% of the state aid is going to Medicaid and education). 45% or $357 billion is allocated to federal social programs and federal spending programs.”
[...]
“Tax relief for individuals
Total: $237 billion
* $116 billion: New payroll tax credit of $400 per worker and $800 per couple in 2009 and 2010. Phaseout begins at $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 for joint filers. [30]
* $70 billion: Alternative minimum tax: a one year increase in AMT floor to $70,950 for joint filers for 2009.[30]
* $15 billion: Expansion of child tax credit: A $1,000 credit to more families (even those that do not make enough money to pay income taxes).
* $14 billion: Expanded college credit to provide a $2,500 expanded tax credit for college tuition and related expenses for 2009 and 2010. The credit is phased out for couples making more than $160,000.
* $6.6 billion: Homebuyer credit: $8,000 refundable credit for all homes bought between 1/1/2009 and 12/1/2009 and repayment provision repealed for homes purchased in 2009 and held more than three years. This only applies to first-time homebuyers.[31]
* $4.7 billion: Excluding from taxation the first $2,400 a person receives in unemployment compensation benefits in 2009.
* $4.7 billion: Expanded earned income tax credit to increase the earned income tax credit — which provides money to low income workers — for families with at least three children.
* $4.3 billion: Home energy credit to provide an expanded credit to homeowners who make their homes more energy-efficient in 2009 and 2010. Homeowners could recoup 30 percent of the cost up to $1,500 of numerous projects, such as installing energy-efficient windows, doors, furnaces and air conditioners.
* $1.7 billion: for deduction of sales tax from car purchases, not interest payments phased out for incomes above $250,000.
Tax relief for companies
Total: $51 billion
* $15 billion: Allowing companies to use current losses to offset profits made in the previous five years, instead of two, making them eligible for tax refunds.
* $13 billion: to extend tax credits for renewable energy production (until 2014).
* $11 billion: Government contractors: Repeal a law that takes effect in 2012, requiring government agencies to withhold three percent of payments to contractors to help ensure they pay their tax bills. Repealing the law would cost $11 billion over 10 years, in part because the government could not earn interest by holding the money throughout the year.
* $7 billion: Repeal bank credit: Repeal a Treasury provision that allowed firms that buy money-losing banks to use more of the losses as tax credits to offset the profits of the merged banks for tax purposes. The change would increase taxes on the merged banks by $7 billion over 10 years.
* $5 billion: Bonus depreciation which extends a provision allowing businesses buying equipment such as computers to speed up its depreciation through 2009.
Healthcare
More than 11% of the total bill is allocated to help states with Medicaid
Total: $147.7 billion
* $86.6 billion for Medicaid
* $24.7 billion to provide a 65 percent subsidy of health care insurance premiums for the unemployed under the COBRA program
* $19 billion for health information technology
* $10 billion for health research and construction of National Institutes of Health facilities
* $1.3 billion for medical care for service members and their families (military)
* $1 billion for prevention and wellness
* $1 billion for the Veterans Health Administration
* $2 billion for Community Health Centers
* $1.1 billion to research the effectiveness of certain healthcare treatments
* $500 million to train healthcare personnel
* $500 million for healthcare services on Indian reservations
Education
Total: $90.9 billion
* $44.5 billion in aid to local school districts to prevent layoffs and cutbacks, with flexibility to use the funds for school modernization and repair (State Equalization Fund)
* $15.6 billion to increase Pell Grants from $4,731 to $5,350
* $13 billion for low-income public schoolchildren
* $12.2 billion for IDEA special education
* $2.1 billion for Head Start
* $2 billion for childcare services
* $650 million for educational technology
* $300 million for increased teacher salaries
* $250 million for states to analyze student performance
* $200 million to support working college students
* $70 million for the education of homeless children
Aid to low income workers, unemployed and retirees (including job training)
Payments to Social Security recipients and people on Supplemental Security Income were parts of the final bill
Total: $82.5 billion
* $40 billion to provide extended unemployment benefits through Dec. 31, and increase them by $25 a week
* $19.9 billion for the Food Stamp Program
* $14.2 billion to give one-time $250 payments to Social Security recipients, people on Supplemental Security Income, and veterans receiving disability and pensions.
* $3.95 billion for job training
* $3 billion in temporary welfare payments
* $500 million for vocational training for the disabled
* $400 million for employment services
* $120 million for subsidized community service jobs for older Americans
* $150 million to help refill food banks
* $100 million for meals programs for seniors, such as Meals on Wheels
* $100 million for free school lunch programs
Infrastructure Investment
Total: $80.9 billion
Core investments (roads, bridges, railways, sewers, other transportation)
Highway construction is the biggest single line infrastructure item in the final bill
Total: $51.2 billion
* $27.5 billion for highway and bridge construction projects
* $8 billion for intercity passenger rail projects and rail congestion grants, with priority for high-speed rail
* $6.9 billion for new equipment for public transportation projects (Federal Transit Administration)
* $6 billion for wastewater and drinking water infrastructure (Environmental Protection Agency)
* $1.3 billion for Amtrak
* $100 million to help public transit agencies
* $750 million for the construction of new public rail transportation systems and other fixed guideway systems.
* $750 million for the maintenance of existing public transportation systems
Investment into government facilities and vehicle fleets
Total: $29.5 billion
* $4.6 billion for the Army Corps of Engineers for environmental restoration, flood protection, hydropower, and navigation infrastructure projects
* $4.5 billion to the U.S. General Services Administration (GSA) for energy efficiency and renewable energy.
* $4.2 billion to repair and modernize Defense Department facilities.
* $4 billion toward the establishment of an Office of Federal High-Performance Green Buildings within the GSA.
* $4 billion for the Clean Water State Revolving Fund (wastewater treatment infrastructure improvements)
* $4 billion for public housing improvements and energy efficiency (Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).
* $2 billion for the Drinking Water State Revolving Fund (drinking water infrastructure improvements)
* $890 million to improve housing for service members
* $300 million to acquire electric vehicles for the federal vehicle fleet
* $250 million to improve Job Corps training facilities
* $240 million for new child development centers
* $150 million for the construction of state extended-care facilities
* $100 million to improve facilities of the National Guard
* $240 million for the maintenance of United States Coast Guard facilities
Supplemental investments
Total: $15 billion
* $7.2 billion for complete broadband and wireless Internet access
* $1.5 billion for competitive grants to state and local governments for transportation investments
* $1.38 billion for rural drinking water and waste disposal projects
* $1 billion to the Bureau of Reclamation for drinking water projects for rural or drought-likely areas
* $750 million to the National Park Service
* $650 million to the Forest Service
* $515 million for wildfire prevention projects
* $500 million for Bureau of Indian Affairs infrastructure projects
* $340 million to the Natural Resources Conservation Service for watershed infrastructure projects
* $320 million to the Bureau of Land Management
* $280 million for National Wildlife Refuges
* $280 million for the National Fish Hatchery System
* $220 million to the International Boundary and Water Commission to repair flood control systems along the Rio Grande
* $220 million for other public lands management agencies
* $500 million to update the computer center at the Social Security Administration
* $290 million to upgrade IT platforms at the State Department
* $50 million for IT improvements at the Farm Service Agency
Energy
Loans and investments into green energy technology are a significant part of the final bill
Total: $61.3 billion
* $11 billion funding for an electric smart grid
* $6.3 billion for state and local governments to make investments in energy efficiency
* $6 billion for renewable energy and electric transmission technologies loan guarantees
* $6 billion for the cleanup of radioactive waste (mostly nuclear power plant sites)
* $5 billion for weatherizing modest-income homes
* $4.5 billion for the Office of Electricity and Energy Reliability to modernize the nation’s electrical grid and smart grid.
* $4.5 billion for state and local governments to increase energy efficiency in federal buildings
* $3.4 billion for carbon capture experiments
* $3.25 billion for the Western Area Power Administration for power transmission system upgrades.
* $2.5 billion for energy efficiency research
* $2 billion for manufacturing of advanced car battery (traction) systems and components.
* $3.2 billion toward Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grants. [32]
* $500 million for training of green-collar workers (by the Department of Labor)
* $400 million for electric vehicle technologies
* $300 million for federal vehicle fleets, to cover the cost of acquiring electric vehicles, including plug-in hybrid vehicles.
* $300 million to buy energy efficient appliances
* $300 million for reducing diesel fuel emissions
* $300 million for state and local governments to purchase energy efficient vehicles
* $250 million to increase energy efficiency in low-income housing
* $600 million to cleanup hazardous waste that threaten health and the environment
* $200 million to cleanup petroleum leaks from underground storage tanks
* $100 million to evaluate and cleanup brownfield land
* $400 million for the Geothermal Technologies Program
Housing
Total: $12.7 billion
* $4 billion to the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) for repairing and modernizing public housing, including increasing the energy efficiency of units.
* $2.25 billion in tax credits for financing low-income housing construction
* $2 billion for Section 8 housing rental assistance
* $2 billion to help communities purchase and repair foreclosed housing
* $1.5 billion for rental assistance and housing relocation
* $510 million for the rehabilitation of Native American housing
* $200 million for helping rural Americans buy homes
* $130 million for rural community facilities
* $100 million to help remove lead paint from public housing
Scientific research
NASA is among the research centers receiving additional funds under the Act
Total: $8.9 billion
* $3 billion to the National Science Foundation
* $2 billion to the United States Department of Energy
* $1.3 billion for university research facilities
* $1 billion to NASA
* $600 million to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
* $580 million to the National Institute of Standards and Technology
* $230 million for NOAA operations, research and facilities
* $140 million to the United States Geological Survey
Other
Total: $18.1 billion
* $8.8 billion: State Block Grants: in aid to states to defray budget cuts.
* $4 billion for state and local law enforcement agencies
* $1.1 billion for improving airport security
* $1 billion in preparation for the 2010 census
* $720 million for improving security at the border and ports of entry
* $750 million for DTV conversion coupons and DTV transition education
* $210 million to build and upgrade fire stations
* $150 million for the security of transit systems
* $250 million for the security of ports
* $26 million to improve security systems at the Department of Agriculture headquarters
* $150 million for an increase of claims processing military staff
* $150 million for VA general operating expenses
* $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts to support artists
* $50 million for the National Cemetery Administration
* $198 million for veterans affected by the Rescission Act of 1946
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June 30th, 2009 at 12:17 am
hr1207
Clean water in most of the nation’s pipes. I could go on and on, but you just asked for one.
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June 30th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Gordon,
You are a moron! I really didn’t want to say it but it’s seriously time to pick up a history book or SOME philosophical document about theory of governing other than the Communist Manifesto.
“Government Stimulus” and Economic Prosperity are contradictory terms. All the power a government ever has comes from its people; i.e. taxes/restriction of rights/tightening of liberties, what have you… You cannot rob people of their money and at the same time expect them to benefit. No offense, but unlike you (and most Democrats), I believe that other people can spend their money much better than I, or the government, can spend it for them.
Gordon, I am an environmentalist, have been for virtually all of my cognitive life. But I know that innovation, even in terms of environmental standards, does not come from the heavy hand of government. Obama, and the like, promote ‘green technologies’ by doing exactly the opposite of what should be done to allow them to flourish; loosen the free market.
For example, Tesla motor companies out of Silicon Valley currently makes an all electric car that goes from 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds and goes about 400 miles before needing a charge. They even have cars on back-order because they cannot make them fast enough to keep up with demand. They have had a hard time emerging, though, since the current government policy props up failed companies like G.M. Tesla cannot get grants from the government because the government is investing all of its (our) money into failed corporations and social bailout programs set to go bankrupt in three years.
Which, by the way, I appreciate you researching. When this fiat sponsored bailout money leads to the hyper-inflation that will prompt the collapse of America, I’ll have a nice inventory and people like you to point to and thank for it.
Get your Gord On!!
yuk yuk
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June 30th, 2009 at 12:32 am
Randallt,
You missed my point. I asked for an example ‘in the grand scheme of history’ and of course you were unable to provide. Instead, you pointed to a completely reasonable expectation of government who’s role it is essentially to provide only those functions which people cannot provide for themselves. This, incidentally, IS the basic principal behind the theory outlined in the Constitution and I appreciate you helping me prove my point.
Furthermore, reckless wars and bankrupting government bailouts sponsored by a fiat monetary system doomed to fail is a far cry from clean pipes.
Try again…
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June 30th, 2009 at 12:41 am
Link
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June 30th, 2009 at 12:46 am
Social Security
The public works infrastructure created by the CCC endure to this day.
The Environmental Protection Agency
The FDA
NASA
The Internet
Public Education
Medicare and Medicaid
… I can go on here …
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June 30th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Thanks to all the Libertarian minded people for engaging here. There don’t seem to be many interactive online forums for your ideas, and I’m glad we can provide one here. The messy business of democracy is on display.
The Tea Party central national site is clearly an ultra-conservative outfit. Perhaps independent organizers will find a focus beyond drowning government in a bathtub or promoting a libertarian utopia where the free market is the benevolent father and government is the evil thief. Until then don’t be surprised when others point out Obama tax cuts, infrastructure investments, and management of a national emergency.
I appreciate the intensity and idealism y’all have even if I don’t agree with your ideas.
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June 30th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Gordon, your exhaustive list of projects funded by the stimulus makes it crystal clear why the multi-millionaire leaders of the Republican party and talking heads in the media who push the Teabag movement so relentlessly are upset.
Most of the benefits will apparently go to folks of average or modest means. Imagine that! Helping people who need help.
Sadly corporate influence has so heavily tilted our system that most actual welfare goes to the wealthy.
One of my proposals for Asheville ought to appeal to both Liberals and Libertarians (though I think mainstream Republicans will have trouble with it). Like many other municipalities I think we should impose a three-strikes law. The city would not purchase from or contract with any business which had thrice been convicted of fraud, tax cheating, violation of wage and hour laws, violation of discrimination laws, or (of course) murder. It would be comforting to know that my tax money wasn’t being paid out to criminals as it is now.
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June 30th, 2009 at 9:04 am
One last thing, randallt…
Although I’m no expert (yes I am) “masturbation for masturbation’s sake” seems somehow redundant.
Especially if you do it a lot. Masturbate I mean.
Okay, bye.
MM
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June 30th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Shad,
no i am not in a position to offer you a job at this time, was just wondering if things were looking up for you. When the economy improves we can talk about it. Do you like landscaping ot putting up fences?
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June 30th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Sure you were.
I come from about 10 generations of farmers, I know all about fences.
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June 30th, 2009 at 11:20 am
MM, thanks for the laugh. I do think Libertarians ‘politically’ masturbate a lot. They, like the hard right, are always against everything. Even coupling.
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June 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Diana said:
“For the record, I plan to attend the Tea Party on July 4th and I participated in numerous anti-war protests during the 8 years Bush was in office. And many other protests of various sorts as well.”
I lived in Asheville during all of W’s watch and there were no teabag protests in Asheville anytime during his terms. As I recall it, if you said anything critical about the Bush administration, the teabag nutjobs called you unpatriotic. A redneck billboard crew even went so far as to cover a privately owned anti-Bush/War billboard at the corner of Hilliard and Lexington Avenue.
Not fooled!
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June 30th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Gordon,
We live in a Republic.
“The messy business of democracy is on display” doesn’t really apply here and is in my opinion a fundamental reason behind a lot of the problems we are facing as a nation today.
As Benjamin Franklin said; “Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.” Until people like you, especially people like you RUNNING FOR PUBLIC OFFICE, read about and understand the fundamental principals of this country it is doomed to fail.
Again, please read the Constitution and stop wasting all of our time. Or, is it part of your platform to undo the Pledge of Allegiance as well?
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June 30th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Thanks for your comment, hr1207. You are a very persuasive fellow.
If we disagree about the Constitutionality of some things and that disagreement is a basis for you to dismiss everything I say, then it seems we don’t have much to talk about.
As to understanding the fundamentals – I believe I do, though it’s evident we disagree. Like sects in Christianity, we see the same text and draw different conclusions. Neither Southern Baptists nor Episcopalians have a corner on Christianity just as neither Libertarians nor Democrats have a corner on Constitutionalism.
I appreciate your participation.
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June 30th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
I’ve been mad at the Pledge of Allegiance since it decided to eliminate the separation of church & state and add ‘under God’ to itself.
It should read, “One nation, under Government”…
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July 1st, 2009 at 12:45 am
“stop wasting all of our time” ????
uh, dude, it’s his blog.
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July 1st, 2009 at 5:05 am
Can someone explain to me what the “democracy” vs. “republic” distinction even means? As far as I can tell, it’s meant to distinguish a form of government that doesn’t exist, but which libertarians prefer, from the government that does exist, and which libertarians don’t like.
For extra points, you can explain what it means when people say that the polity of the United States, having evolved organically over more than 200 years, is unconstitutional.
Finally, how is Gordon against the pledge of allegiance?
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July 1st, 2009 at 8:18 am
Libertarians have always struck me as petulant children, pissing and moaning, whining and whinging because things aren’t going their way. They are so selfish and self-centered they care not a fig about others, see no need or virtue in helping others or contributing to the commonwealth. I can tell there are a few of these types here by the shallow comments which center on the assumption that it the fault of others for not understanding them. If only we’d read the con…sti..tu. tion!!!! Whiny little babies.
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July 1st, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Gordon,
Thank you for your acknowledgment. First off, let me apologize for calling you a moron. It was unnecessary and unprofessional to say the least. I’m glad you understand the value of appreciating a Constitutional approach to government but I still advise that you reassess what you know.
The problem, you see, is in the precedent that unconstitutional activities provide. Its not so much that Bush or Obama are the problem per say, it’s much more an issue of opening the door to failed policies that harm or trample the rights of many people in the years or generations after the fact. Some good examples of this are “don’t as, don’t tell” from the Clinton days that still carry harmful “closeting” policies toward homosexuals or “the patriot act” from Bush which has yet to be repealed. A similar policy mistake can be found at the onset of the Great Depression when the Hoover “New Deal” policies were amplified instead of Repealed under Roosevelt,prolonging the financial misery.
There in lies the need for strict Constitutional accountability for all, instead of selective accountability when the guy you like happens to be running the show for this particular four or eight years, Diogenes. In response to you: I do unfortunately refuse to “suck it up” while mine and everyone else’s civil liberties dry up and we are all forced into poverty through a fiat monetary system. I guess I’m just too selfish to stop volunteering huge swaths of my time in the fight for liberty to “piss and moan.” Sorry.
Mr. Gibson,
To address your question as simply as I can the differences between a Republic and a Democracy are as follows;
Republics, which is what we live in, as noted in the Pledge of Allegiance, observes first and foremost the rule of law for everyone, regardless of race, creed, sex, class, what have you. “Res” being the Latin term for ‘law’ and “Publican” being the Latin term for ‘the people’ or ‘the public’ therefore translates into a meaning for a system of government that observes equally the rights of all people (The Peoples Law). Now, since certain rights are endowed by ‘The Creator’ or, ‘Natural Law’ as some have theorized, those rights are in fact “inalienable” and as a result cannot be rightfully restricted by any other individual or governmental body. Liberties, which libertarians are obvious advocates for, ARE in fact granted to its citizens by the government. Therefore, greater liberties equal greater freedom for all, which incidentally leads to less government, inherently.
A Democracy, on the other hand, does not necessarily recognize the rights of the people in the same way a Republic does. You see, in a Democracy, as with any “ocracy” (theocracy, autocracy, etc…)the rule of law is granted to the ruling class, usually provided by a “majority vote.” This essentially means that once a party or individual has obtained a majority support for leadership, they are therefore granted the ability to make or observe laws as they please at the expense of the minority. Whereas in a Republic, you have representation and equal rights for all minority parties and, regardless of leadership, no one’s right get trampled upon. Democracy’s,inherently, usually only have one legitimate election (the first one) because once the ruler gains power he can do as he pleases. A great example of this is the democratic election of German Chancellor Adolph Hitler who, once in power, absolved the entire governmental structure and forced upon his nation a single ‘National Socialist’ party which forced its narrow agenda upon it’s citizenry, regardless of dissent.
The confusion, I believe, is that America DOES have a democratic voting system which is only a cog in the greater checks and balances wheel of our Constitutional Republic. Other restrictions (checks and balances) include, the three branches of government, age denominations for federal office, primary elections, what have you…
Make things a little clearer?
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July 1st, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Sorry, no.
Because what you call a republic as opposed to a democracy I would call a democratic republic. And our “democratic voting system” (what other kinds of voting systems are there?) is more than a “cog” – it’s the entire basis for determining whether the republic’s government has the consent of people it governs. And that giving or withholding of consent is the chief means by which the other attributes of a republic – checks and balances, voting restrictions, what have you – are defended and maintained. Take democracy out of the equation, and you won’t have a republic for long. Or you might, but it would be a sham, like the old Soviet republics or the People’s Republic of China.
Moreover, many of the expansions of government power which you seem to oppose stem from the fact that individual rights, and especially the rights of minorities, are constantly under threat from concentrations of power, whether in the government or outside of it.
Like a lot of people, I happen to think that my right to determine my own destiny kind of requires clean water, clean air, and security from catastrophic climate change (to pick a more current example). I’m not impressed when stockholders or individuals say that my right to health unfairly infringes on their right to make a profit. Similarly, there are probably a few African-Americans who regard the government as the chief protector of their right to live where they like, do the work they’re qualified to do, and marry those they love regardless of race.
If we could rely on individuals, or state and local government, to protect these rights, that’d be great. But their track record doesn’t give us much confidence, and so it is in the federal government – where scattered minorities have the greatest aggregate power – that we place our hope.
So, with all due respect, the republic vs. democracy distinction makes absolutely no sense to me. It just sounds like the reasoning of someone who isn’t particularly happy with the way his fellow citizens vote.
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July 1st, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Mr. Gibson,
I never proposed ridding us of the democratic voting system, I simply highlighted the dangers that come along with wrongfully assuming that we live in a Democracy. There are, in fact, alternate voting systems such as tiered voting that yield much more favorable results. For that however, I suggest you consult Bernard B. Carman who can give you much more clarity on the process than I can.
Furthermore, both the examples you cited (The U.S.S.R and P.R.C.) are perfect examples to prove my point. Both have been ruled by Autocratic Dictators who masked their ill-intentions under the guise of “fair elections” or outlandishly claiming their states to be Republics. In that same light, it is principally important that all voting persons, regardless of “minority” status (whatever one determines a minority) keep a watchful and diligent eye on its governments affairs, especially if that government leans towards oppression of their rights.
Lastly, don’t get me wrong, I fully believe AND EXPECT government should do what it’s supposed to do: Only those things people cannot do for themselves. To tax someone, however, only to give to another party under a “mandate” of something as vague as “health care” is more akin to robbery. Thief’s belong in jail Mr. Gibson, not in office.
If you refuse to understand the difference between a democracy and republic, though, I suggest you either don’t ask or consult the political philosophies of any of our founding fathers or Enlightenment Philosophers. I’ll give you a head start:
“The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.” – Thomas Jefferson
“Democracy is necessarily despotism, as it establishes an executive power contrary to the general will; all being able to decide against one whose opinion may differ, the will of all is therefore not that of all: which is contradictory and opposite to liberty.” – Immanuel Kant
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July 1st, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Doug writes: “I happen to think that my right to determine my own destiny kind of requires clean water, clean air”
In these examples, you are correct. It is the proper role of government to protect individual rights from injury, and this would include protection against incidents of pollution and contamination caused by human action.
However, only in a constitutional republic can the protection of the right to not be harmed by pollution be protected.
A democracy cannot guarantee these protections because a system based on majority rule or mob rule, instead of an objective rule of law, can subvert those protections by simply taking another vote when the mood of the mob has shifted.
A political system where a majority can vote to violate another’s rights is immoral. That system is democracy.
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July 1st, 2009 at 5:40 pm
WOW! besides those here who realize that BOTH majority political parties have been hijacked by authoritarians, and media celeb’s like Olbermann (and of course, Rush) are full of crap and out for their own personal interests, Kai is about the only “left-leaning” (i presume) person here who seems to be making any sense whatsoever!
i apologize for creating a very long post of replies and comments, but i promise to only do this once on this thread, and i will not re-visit it again.
if anyone here would like to discuss the principles of liberty further, i suggest we do so in person, which would surely reduce the potential for ad hominem attacks and general insults which profit us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
you can contact myself (bernard b carman) through Liberty Asheville which meets every Tuesday night at Natural Import Co. we’re always thinking of ways in which we might be able to advance liberty, and the education thereof, at the local level.
as a prerequisite to discussing the concepts of liberty, i strongly suggest everyone watch this non-partisan short YouTube clip entitled, “The Philosophy of Liberty”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFWr4GB6lqE
Kai — thank you for stating some facts regarding the broken system of which so many people are taking advantage, at the expense of everyone. i hope one day We the People of America understand that it is immoral to force people to be their “brothers’ keepers”.
“shadmarsh” — because of your overall attitude, you don’t seem worth replying to in this forum… so i won’t. if you would like to have a meaningful online discussion, i strongly suggest changing your tack. if you desire, you can learn to attack ideas and philosophies without directly attacking the person advancing them.
“greenasheville” — MANY supporters of the Tea Party protests HAVE NOT given Bush a “blank check” for the last 8 years. MANY of us have been active in various ways, trying to figure out the best way to maximize liberty here in Amerika, and minimize the UNLIMITED CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENT. MANY of us did do by our activism within the Libertarian Party and/or other activism groups. MANY of us did so by advancing the name of Ron Paul during the 2008 Primaries, thus doubling the NC State average of 7% to 14% here in our district.
are ALL Tea Party’ers non-partisan and/or focused on liberty? of course not! however, those of us who are organizing the Asheville Tea Party are striving to advance liberty by educating ourselves, and encouraging others to do likewise.
if it is mostly “Conservatives” who choose to attend these protests and also strive to learn more about the philosophy of liberty, then it will be those who will hopefully come around to better understand how political leaders within BOTH major parties have entirely sold out liberty in America and work against the Fascist tendencies of the GOP. if the “Liberals” choose to not do likewise, then they will continue to advance Socialism through their Democratic Party, without regard to liberty whatsoever.
“randallt” — hate? perhaps you speak of the hatred of tyranny & despotism — that’s the only hatred being expressed at the Asheville Tea Party. BTW, in case you missed out in your history classes, the American founders largely hated tyranny as well, which is why there was an American Revolution in the first place.
also BTW, it is in the name of LIBERTY that American soldiers have fought and died since the Revolutionary War, even though every war since WWII was UN-Constitutional.
i don’t know what you are speaking about with regard to your comments about libertarianism & masturbation. but since many of you seem to know so much about “tea-bagging”, i presume it’s an inside joke of sorts that i just don’t want to get!
uh… you also lost me with regard to my alleged “following the lead of Glenn Beck”. my first introduction to Glenn Beck was his mocking of Ron Paul. the next was his kissing Ron Paul’s ass on his own show weeks later. therefore, i do not trust the guy — nor really ANY media personality who is apparently merely after personal gain.
if you refer to my reaching out to the 9-12Project locals, it’s for the same reason i have been trying to reach out to the local “Conservatives” and “Liberals” for about a decade, which i hope i have explained above.
if you bothered to actually LISTEN to our messages at the AVL Tax Day Tea Party, you would have already KNOWN we are calling for the federal government to be held accountable to its limited powers, granted to it by We the People via the Constitution.
here’s my speech from April 15th. it’s pretty damn good, truthful, and entirely refutes your comment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5B_pw1EvM
you see, i believe we’re ALL Americans, and we’re ALL deceived to some degree about a great many things (certainly including myself). it is up to us as INDIVIDUALS, not political parties, to break out of the shackles of deception.
we can either choose to do so, or continue to play the “right-left” blame game until We the People do EXACTLY what the globalist tyrants want us to do — break out in major violent civil unrest so that they can entirely eliminate any sense of freedom whatsoever as they finish off their creation of a GLOBAL GOVERNMENT TYRANNY.
so yeah, if you’re on the side of tyranny, keep up your modus operandi and enjoy your barbeque!
(wow, i keep finding more “noteworthy” statements from you on which i simply MUST comment!)
to HR1207: “Clean water in most of the nation’s pipes. I could go on and on, but you just asked for one.”
– upon his asking, “If you can point to one, JUST ONE, example of government growth benefiting people in the grand scheme of history I will gladly give you credit for your argument.”
LOL! funny you should mention that with Asheville’s history of the water system debacle — something for which LOCAL government is actually RESPONSIBLE! based on your comment, we must presume you feel the federal government should preside over THIS local government issue of infrastructure as well!
PLEASE get a grip — EVERYONE! — about the proper roles of government within their own jurisdiction, as mandated by LAW!
REGARDING WAR CRIMES: something about which i’m very curious… i keep hearing a call for accountability & justice for Bush & Cheney in regards to their war crimes, which i entirely agree. however, i have yet to hear anything of the sort for this “new” administration. as Amerika advances its federal tentacles into Middle Eastern nations, will these same individuals at some point also call for such accountability & justice for Obama & Biden? i have to wonder…
Gordon — you speak of all this so called “tax relief” apparently without the understanding that because of the CONTINUED — YES, CONTINUED — irresponsible spending into levels of debt that America has never seen, the USD will soon be devalued to the point of no return. your championed “tax reliefs” will soon be rendered utterly MOOT.
please take a moment to watch the NON-PARTISAN movie IOUSA. you might also find this Hyperinflation Nation YouTube clip noteworthy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmYI_4XCbM
and if Obama and members within his administration really gave a crap about the environment, health freedom, and our economy, he wouldn’t have made snide remarks about the notion of legalizing hemp and marijuana, when an overwhelming majority of such questions flooded in from THOSE WHO PROBABLY SUPPORTED HIM took the time to ask.
you DARE suggest that the FDA has helped people??? you HAVE GOT to be kidding! yeah, let’s champion a government agency who approves POISONS on a regular basis! UN-FRAKIN-BELIEVABLE!!!
and Public Education at the FEDERAL LEVEL? sure, they’ve done a WONDERFUL job at improving the education of Americans with its “No Idiot Left Behind” legislation… NOT! again, you apparently need to learn more about the PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT within its APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF JURISDICTION.
(sorry, but my CAPS LOCK key keeps sticking! you suggested we have more humor…
Medicare & Medicaid… yeah right — government intrusion into the medical industry has been working so well over the past few decades that Amerikan-Socialists are now calling for a government monopoly over health insurance! great idea seeing how it was government involvement in health care and medicine that is largely responsible for screwing everything up to begin with!
Health Freedom — who needs it, eh? how many useful alternative health care options have been suppressed or pushed out of the country by the AMA through government force? and just look at the overall INCREASE of Amerikan health since the federal government got more involved in health care!
(sorry, but i just cannot help but address many of these issues with sarcasm — that’s a form of humor as well, no?
The Internet… oh yes, that WAS Al Gore’s invention, right?
it had absolutely NOTHING to do with various private UTILITY COMPANIES at all!
Environmental Protection Agency… (cricket)
NASA… well perhaps there’s a somewhat decent answer, but i’m not really sure about the benefit in striving to discover “life” on other planets or their moons to the tune of how many millions/billions? NASA might be best left to give us cool pictures of distant galaxies, warn us of mega-meteors on a collision path with Earth (as if we can put aside our various differences long enough to do something about it), or perhaps come up with ways of eliminating our human wastes by sending it all to the Sun.
wait, speaking of the Sun, what government program is responsible for discovering a method of containing nuclear fusion to solve our various energy problems? or would that endeavor be thwarted by lobbyists of the various oil & alternative energy companies who apparently have Congress in their back pockets?
oh yeah, and speaking of the supposed wisdom of the NC legislature, why is it that with all this education stimulus money (shall we also mention the NC Lottery which was supposed to go to NC Education facilities?) teachers are being laid off while the money is spent on things like putting doors on rooms originally designed to not have them? (one example a local teacher recently shared with me in her school)
Amerikan government at ALL levels is corrupt. if you think the government modus operandi should continue on its present course, then you really should do all of us locals a HUGE favor and drop out of running for City Council!
sects of Christianity draw different conclusions from the same text because they almost universally fail to spend enough time in individual personal study to discover the truths within. it’s far easier to presume the authorities are correct about a doctrine and then go on to be deceived by them for hundreds/thousands of years.
so long as you draw your conclusions upon misunderstandings about liberty and the proper roles of government at its various levels, then you WIL NOT understand the true fundamentals of liberty and its philosophies on which America was founded. regardless, i encourage you to keep trying.
you are certainly correct about one thing: no religious or secular group has a corner on TRUTH. it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to discover various TRUTHS and to help educate one another in these TRUTHS, hopefully without relying upon insults and direct attacks in the process.
Cecil Bothwell — Gordon Smith should perhaps at this point sit out from getting into politics and listen more to his buddy, Cecil. apparently, Cecil has a better understanding of how Amerika is being sold out by Fascism, although he perhaps might not yet see the same problem with Socialism… time will tell, i guess.
thank you, Cecil, for pointing out the absurdity of the various and seemingly endless government handouts, which will most certainly be misappropriated into the hands of the Fascists & Socialists who bought and paid for this current and previous administrations.
ON “DEMOCRACY”: why is it that so many Amerikans praise “Democracy” when the term really only means “MOB RULES”?
when we speak of America as being a “Constitutional Republic”, we speak rightly, for that IS the government type which was set up in America. but i don’t think i’ve ever heard contemporary politicos use the term, “Constitutional Democracy”. i have to wonder why this is…?
are most people who triumph “Democracy” oblivious to the concept of CONSTITUTIONALLY LIMITED government? do the vast majority of Americans not understand that the Constitution LIMITS the government, not We the People?
most importantly, most Amerikans do not focus on what is MOST IMPORTANT — LIBERTY!
ON the NATIONAL TEA PARTY MOVEMENT: we Asheville Tea Party supporters — or “Tea Party’ers” — FULLY REALIZE that the movement is being largely co-opted by Neo-Cons & Theo-Cons. we are striving to set the example for the TRUE purpose of the modern day Tea Party, which is parallel to the original Tea Party — a protest against tyranny just prior to declaring American independence, through the fundamental truths of LIBERTY!
if there are not enough libertarians currently in Amerika to get involved and offset this occurrence, then we might be forced against our will to disassociate ourselves with the “Tea Party” movement.
and frankly, my perspective is that if there are not enough libertarians currently in Amerika to accomplish this, then there is probably no hope for liberty to ever thrive in America ever again.
ON the Pledge of Allegiance: Adam commented that it should read, “… One nation, under Government…”.
i personally stopped saying the Pledge of Allegiance mostly for spiritual reasons, but i won’t go into that here. since then, i also discovered it was deceptively crafted by a “Christian Socialist” (if that was actually possible) named Francis Bellamy. to discover more about this proponent of tyranny, check out this article: http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo54.html
that said, Adam’s comment exhibits a serious lack of understanding about LIBERTY — that is, our natural rights are derived by the Creator (however one defines that), NOT by any human or government of humans.
the more Amerikans strive tirelessly in their efforts to do away with this truth, the more they are embracing slavery under the rule of tyrants.
“Diogenes” — if libertarians are “whiny little babies”, then America was founded upon being such against tyrants, and therefore, we’re in pretty damn good company! the thing is, LIBERTY always survives because LIBERTY is to LIFE, while TYRANNY is to DEATH.
Doug Gibson — regarding “what other kinds of voting systems are there?”, Amerika uses Plurality Voting, which always results in a choice of TWO — that’s it, TWO CHOICES!
if Amerika would adopt Range Voting, voters would be able to vote for each candidate by rating each one of them. it is a far superior voting system than Plurality Voting, which also eliminates the Wasted Vote Syndrome (“lesser of two evils”) AND the Spoiler Effect.
for more information, Google “Range Voting”, or go to RangeVoting.org.
for your “extra points” question, although i’ve already probably covered this — especially in my speech at the Tax Day Tea Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5B_pw1EvM):
it is UN-Constitutional for the federal government to do ANYTHING outside of its LIMITED Constitutional powers.
two examples:
when it gives a private banking institution called the “Federal Reserve” (which is no more “federal” than Federal Express) powers of coining money and managing the US Treasury — a power given only to Congress (the extension of We the People) — it’s UN-Constitutional, and therefore, ILLEGAL.
when it gives the President the power to declare war — a power given only to Congress (the extension of We the People) — it’s UN-Constitutional, and therefore, ILLEGAL.
i think i already enough covered your question regarding “Democracy” vs. “Republic”, which again exemplifies the point i made that people seem to almost universally forget that the most important part of either type of government is Constitutionally LIMITED — THAT is the kind of government libertarians prefer.
well, it was somewhat fun y’all!
in liberty,
bbc
•••
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July 1st, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Mr. Carman,
We don’t live under a tyrant. Look it up. Also this is my country and it is spelled America, not Amerika. I would appreciate it if you would show proper respect and at least use the correct spelling. Other than that, you sound like a raving lunatic so far out of touch with reality that I wouldn’t dare go anywhere near you in public. So no, I won’t be attending your little hate fest.
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July 1st, 2009 at 7:49 pm
In case some of you were wondering (okay, maybe it was just me), the most comments we’ve had on a single post was for our Election Day 2007 open thread – 196 of them.
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July 2nd, 2009 at 2:35 am
Bernard-
TL:DR
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July 2nd, 2009 at 10:44 am
Admin,
I think a hundred of those comment were from me.
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July 3rd, 2009 at 8:35 pm
White Supremacists, Anti-Semites to Recruit at Tea Parties
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As they have done with other political and social issues, for example, promoting the Ron Paul campaign and using the immigration debate, white supremacists and anti-Semites are planning to exploit Tea Parties over the July 4 holiday to disseminate their hateful views and recruit a larger following.
http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/White_Supremacists_July_4_Tea_Parties.htm
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